The Value Of Church In Our Life

What is the purpose of church? In a culture where many people describe themselves as "spiritual but not religious," is belonging to a church still necessary?

In this season finale of Speaking of Faith, Bishop DeDe and Adam explore why Christian community matters—not because church is perfect, but because none of us are meant to grow in faith alone. Together they discuss how worship shapes us, why healthy relationships help us become more fully ourselves, and how authentic Christian community differs from toxic or coercive expressions of faith.

The conversation also wrestles with loneliness, the temptation to define faith only on our own terms, and the importance of gathering with people who challenge, encourage, forgive, and walk alongside us. Rather than asking, "What do I get out of church?" this episode invites us to consider a deeper question: How does worshiping God together transform who we are?

In this episode:

• Why church is more than a building or a weekly obligation.
• The difference between being "spiritual" and growing through community.
• How healthy Christian relationships help shape our faith and character.
• Why worship is about glorifying God—not simply meeting our own needs.
• How to recognize the difference between authentic Christian community and harmful or toxic expressions of faith.
• Why disagreement, accountability, and even being wrong can become opportunities for spiritual growth.
• How gathering around Scripture, prayer, and worship continually forms us into the people God created us to be.

As the podcast takes a short summer break, Bishop DeDe and Adam also invite listeners to spend time reflecting on their own faith journey and to send in questions and topics they'd like to explore when Speaking of Faith returns this fall.

What role has church played in your life? Share your thoughts and questions—we'd love to continue the conversation when we return in September.

Send us your questions and join the conversation as we continue learning how to speak of faith together.

AI Disclosure: To support our staff in their limited time, some of our episode summaries are first generated by AI and then edited by the Communications Director to accurately reflect and preview our podcast episodes.

Transcript

DeDe Duncan-Probe (00:02.43)

Welcome to the podcast, Speaking of Faith. We're here to be curious, to wander together, and to talk about what we hold most dear in our life: our faith, our belief, what we believe to be true about God and ourselves and one another. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I'm joined by Adam Eichelberger, and I invite you to this space of curiosity and wondering together. We're not here to be right. This isn't a podcast about.

disseminating information where you should believe this or you shouldn't believe that. This is about inviting all of us to that vulnerable, dynamic, growing space of having conversation together as we seek to know God. And part of that is to recognize we may be wrong. When we speak of faith, it is invitationally, it is with hope that we will draw closer to Jesus. And so welcome to this space.

Today our conversation is going to center around the value of being an attendee of church. Is it helpful to go to church for you in your life? And if so, why? And if not, why not? Now I want to be very transparent in this. The purpose is not to coerce you or talk you into going to church, rather. The point of our podcast today is

is to respond to something that we're hearing in the feedback from your comments and your questions and when we hear from our listeners who talk about having been harmed by the church, who talk about struggling with church, who are wondering about church. And so this idea of coming together as a community of faith, what about that for you and your faith life is valuable? And what may be hindering or getting in your way? I think sometimes in our church communities,

They can be a real hotbed of gossip and discontent and dehumanization and conflict. And they can also be the place that we go to find comfort and nurture, fellowship and community around whether we've lost a loved one or we're starting a new venture, a place where we can join together and be part of growing together. And so how do you find

DeDe Duncan-Probe (02:23.635)

The value of church to be for you. I also wonder at times if church gets in the way of the gospel of Jesus. Because nowhere in the gospels do you see Jesus saying, I have come to form a church, to form a vestry, to form a committee, so that we can have all of this work to do. You see Jesus saying, Love your neighbor. You see Jesus saying, Seek out the stranger and be kind. Pray for your enemies. Take a cup of cold water.

Welcome a child. So rather than a religion, Jesus is inviting us and emboldening emboldening us into relationship with God, with ourselves, and one another. So, welcome to the conversation. And Adam, I'm going to welcome you to this conversation. How, when you think about the value of church for you, what comes to your mind and how might we speak about that value?

Adam Eichelberger (03:21.299)

One of the first things that I thought of when we decided to have this conversation on the show is the value of being a part of community itself. I'm going to probably get this statistic wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've seen data that suggests that people who live in community rather than those who live in isolation tend to live longer, something to the effect of like 20 % longer than those who stay isolated.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (03:25.983)

Mm-hmm.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (03:46.313)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (03:49.844)

So I think that there is a desire to be in community that's deep within people. You even mentioned it just a second ago, Bishop, about relationship, that Jesus didn't necessarily come to establish a religion, he did come to establish a relationship. My question becomes when we see so often, especially over the last 15-ish years,

that many, I'm going to use air quotes, young people, because I technically still kind of fall in the realm of young people, even though I'm in my...

DeDe Duncan-Probe (04:20.777)

Yes, you do. You're younger than I am. Go ahead.

Adam Eichelberger (04:23.437)

even though I'm not going to say where in my 40s I am, but I do technically classify as young people, that usually people my age and down don't want to have anything to do with church or with organized religion. And because of that, they don't tend to gravitate towards going to a service or being a part of a faith community. First of all, let's talk about maybe the whys.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (04:28.02)

Ha ha ha.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (04:47.188)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (04:51.965)

Maybe some of this will be anecdotal. Some of this may be data-based. But in our context, why are we seeing, that people who are younger people, again, their quotes, are skewing away from it? But then also, where are we seeing an uptick in people joining religious life? Or not religious life, because it makes it sound like they're becoming like nuns. But because in some churches, you are seeing shrinking.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (05:13.727)

That's right.

Adam Eichelberger (05:20.865)

But in some churches, you're seeing some growth. So where do we feel like this disconnect may be coming from? I guess is my first question.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (05:29.587)

Well, and I don't know that I have all the answers at all to anything, but I can say that what I've learned from people and read about is this disillusionment with the church because you know, for a long time, whether you think about during during slavery or actually really during the, you know, Jim Crow years and the years post civil war when churches would have their services and let out early so they people could go and

witness the hanging, or when you think about churches that have opposed the dignity and justice of LGBTQ plus persons, or when you think about really going back women's dignity and rights. I mean, I remember being in services where it was preached that if you're an abused wife, you should pray for and stay with your husband because you might help him find salvation. I mean, the the church has been complicit in harm

Adam Eichelberger (06:07.479)

Mm-hmm.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (06:28.221)

In many ways, and that's not even to mention, you know, a lot of people want to bring up whether they've been bullied at church or they've had bad experiences, but just sort of writ large, there is evidence for how the church has not been really living up to that vision that Jesus ha gave to us of the kingdom of God, of the kingdom of God community where people are welcomed in the gospel in the Acts of the Apostles where, you know, they're

living in community and supporting one another and and contributing. and even in those passages you see humans being humans, wrestling with each other, fighting with each other, greed and avarice and jealousy and all the things. So it's not surprising to me in one way that young people would look at all of the data and kind of say, I'm out. You know, I don't want to be part of hate a hate organization. But then at the same time what we're seeing and you brought you mentioned it, we're seeing a re

Renewal in across our diocese at least, of young people who are not what you would call not church, haven't been to church before, who suddenly are appearing at our church because they hear that we are our our work is about the dignity of humans. Our work is about holding up the that God has created us, and so our mutual support of one another's of one another honors God's creation. And as they hear about that.

Young people have started coming to churches and looking for something bigger than all the acrimony and partisanship. We really lost a lot when church attendance did go down because suddenly you have people who claim to be Christian but aren't actually being formed in the faith of Jesus and so become hard hearted or judgmental or isolationist and especially Christian nationalism.

Which is a sin. And it needs to be said frequently and often that when you take the gospel of Jesus and try to corrupt it into some sort of social narrative, you have corrupted it. And this isn't what God's calling us to be. So I think we are seeing a resurgence of young people being curious and coming seeking to know more. we even have a church in the diocese of central New York that had to knock out a wall and expand their nursery.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (08:50.515)

Because you know, the return of families to church where there's a sense that their children are gonna be safe in our congregations because we're doing our work to ensure safety and dignity. So it's not surprising that people left for a time, but I think hopefully will also be true that people will find there is value in coming together.

Adam Eichelberger (09:15.47)

I know specifically like here in the Diocese at our parish, we traditionally have been a one service a Sunday parish, but starting in the fall, we're actually bumping it up to two, because we're seeing more people coming back and we're like, boy, like we don't have, our building is so old and historical that we can't really expand physically our footprint, but we can add services. And people said that that's what they wanted. I like what you said though about, yes, we're seeing

DeDe Duncan-Probe (09:23.54)

Mm.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (09:37.919)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (09:43.763)

specifically in our diocese and listener, I don't know where you're located, what your faith tradition or denomination may be. If you're seeing what maybe we're seeing here in central New York, we're seeing this, we're seeing these younger people who are showing interest all of a sudden. The other thing that I'm seeing is we are seeing people who I'm going to not use it in a negative way, but people who are older, who are returning back to church. And I kind of likened it the other day. I was having a conversation with somebody is

DeDe Duncan-Probe (10:06.452)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (10:11.202)

When I was younger, when I was in high school and college, I played football. played high school varsity football. I played collegiate football. And I always thought of myself as pretty strong. And then like in the not too distant past, I started realizing I wasn't as strong as I was. And I remember I was like, well, I used to be strong as an ox because I went to the gym every day and I worked it out. And when I realized that I wasn't working out,

in the same way that I was, didn't have the same strength that I used to have. was like, that's probably a good indicator that maybe I should hit the gym. I kind of feel like there's a little bit of that spiritual need to hit the gym, as it were, specifically in people who maybe were part of the church and left for whatever reason, their life circumstances changed, their employment changed. They maybe experienced some church hurt, which is something we actually talked about in season three of the podcast. So listener.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (10:47.401)

Mm.

Adam Eichelberger (11:04.684)

viewer if you want to go back in the feed and check out, think it's season three, episode 11 and 12. We talked about dealing with hurt in the church. Good rewatch, good re-listen, especially over the summer. But I think that that's maybe a part of it too, is that people want to re-engage the spiritual muscles. And I think it's easy to be like, and you've probably heard this a thousand times Bishop, because I know I've heard it a thousand times, the phrase, I'm not.

religious, but I am spiritual. Which is great to try and think that way, but it's also really hard for me to drive from here to the Grand Canyon if I don't know where the roads are. It's not...

DeDe Duncan-Probe (11:36.222)

Yeah.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (11:47.348)

Well and exactly and you know, and I think this is where scripture does help us. I mean I think scripture always helps us. I don't wanna sound like it doesn't, but there's really a specific thing here. Paul talks about in the epistles about the iron sharpening iron and incite one another to good works and and the apostles coming together in community and in the baptismal covenant, as soon as we're making this the sacrament with God of covenanting, of promising God

vowing to God how we will be, the very first thing after we name who God is, is to say, will you continue in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and in the prayers? It not only, I mean, I think your illustration about working out or driving is a good one, but our faith always, always has been communal. And for quite a number of years, maybe a while,

There have been there was this focus on individuality, personal savior of Jesus, which is on one hand, again, positive to have a sense of your own identity as a Christian. You don't want to be grandfathered in, because that isn't what the faith is about. It is about a relationship. And if you don't have a relationship with Jesus, then that's part of the the whole thing. But our faith is communal. It is not individual. I don't have my little

you know, thread coming to me from God, and that's it. We're a tapestry woven together. And we know this whether we look at chaos theory and the butterfly effect, or we look at social social theories, or we look at, I mean, today in central New York, I'm dating this podcast. We have smoke from the wildfires in Canada. We are all interrelated. And so when you think about being our best self,

Being our best self necessitates community because only in community can that tapestry of God mm be built into a picture, as it were, to use that metaphor, use several metaphors. I d I think it's really aspirational to say I'm not religious, I'm just spiritual. But what that sounds like to me in some ways is a cop-out. It's like saying, Well, you know, I'm just gonna eat whatever I want.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (14:09.161)

Because I don't like anybody telling me what to do. And that has been a sin of the church is this desire to tell people what to do that does not honor their inner spirit or voice. And that is a that's been a wrong. And like you say, if you you know, this isn't anything goes day. there is there are things about spirituality that actually have real import.

When you look at the history of humans, the fact that the major religions have similar tenets, you know, the rule of ten, five personal, five social, or if you look at these ways. So to learn about who we are in faith necessitates learning together. Otherwise, we run the risk of getting corrupted or co opted by our own selfish greed and avarice that's gonna lead us in the wrong way.

I mean, I often what the illustration I use, Adam and listeners, is you get up in the morning, you're feeling really good, and you think, I'm in a really good mood. I feel really great. And then you walk out and you see a family member or a neighbor, you get in your car to drive somewhere, and instantly you're yelling at people and mad, and you think, I would felt really good today until you fill in the blank and you messed up my day. Well

If we have integrity and honesty about ourselves, we recognize we may have only felt good because we actually felt good because we were in a selfish, self-seeking my way or the highway. I want what I want and I want it when I want mindset. And as soon as we bumped into another human being, that becomes revealed. We need each other to check ourselves before we wreck ourselves to really, you know, use some other thing.

Because we aren't a reliable source of information. And so community gives us that opportunity to have our, to buff off our rough edges, to learn, to be formed, to be transformed, and to have the opportunity, which we need to value more, of being wrong. Being wrong is very useful because if we aren't aware where we're wrong, we're never going to be able to be right.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (16:32.081)

And so if being s not religious but spiritual means that way I don't have to be bothered by those people or that way I can keep my identity in check, then I would want to question what that means because I do think we are all part of one another and that necessitates some buffering. It necessitates some self-giving in relationship.

Adam Eichelberger (16:57.846)

Well, yeah, I can't remember who I heard say this one time, some popular media personality, but he made he was a person who he had a wife and he made the point that for him, the whole one of the benefits of being a married person was having somebody who says you can't wear flip flops to a funeral. so having somebody.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (17:18.011)

Exactly.

Adam Eichelberger (17:20.844)

like you said, that can kind of call us out and be like, hey, like maybe you got to take a look at some things. And for me in my particular context, I am, I'm married and I'm glad that I have my wife that can tell me, hey, you can't wear flip-flops to a funeral or a wedding or, you know, fill in the blank, but also a community of people that can be aware. And I can be, we can be so integrated, not on an unhealthy way with, good boundaries, safe church, with good boundaries.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (17:47.808)

Yeah.

Adam Eichelberger (17:49.538)

that we can say like, Hey, what's going on with you? What can we help you with? Because I think it's real. I it's really easy, especially in our context as Episcopalians, because there is such a focus on serving people, right? We want to do so much to reach out to those who are marginalized and serve. But it's also really important that we don't abandon the need within our walls, if you want to call it that, to care for one another. We don't get

DeDe Duncan-Probe (17:53.237)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (18:19.021)

dismissed from the flock that needs care that Jesus talks about just because we're in the group. You know, a lot of times we hear that we hear the story of leaving the 99 behind for the one and we're like, well, at least I know I'm taken care of because I'm one of the 99. No, we are constantly reminded that we are the one. I want to go back to something that you talked about a few minutes ago. You had mentioned, it kind of felt like two things, these rising

DeDe Duncan-Probe (18:26.834)

Exactly.

Adam Eichelberger (18:48.395)

trends in the church in America. And I'm going to use some buzzwords, so bear with me. It seems like there's kind of two ways that Christianity has kind of gotten co-opted a little bit in America. This first vein is kind of the idea of a prosperity gospel, that if I'm good enough and I pray enough and I give enough, God's going to give me all the things that are my heart's desire.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (19:08.597)

Mm-hmm.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (19:16.159)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (19:17.389)

I think that that can become very attractive to people because I think that if I can maybe say the right incantations and offer up the right offerings, then I'm going to get a boat because I've always wanted a boat. I feel like maybe we could talk about that a little bit, but the big one that you wanted that you talked about a little bit ago that I want to lean into a little bit, because we've talked a lot about the benefits of this community in the church. think, and this is my opinion.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (19:28.511)

Mm-hmm.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (19:41.727)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (19:45.271)

I think that a lot of the rise that we see within Christian nationalism, specifically in America, is the call of the church is to go to the marginalized, those on the outside. But we have seen so much, especially lately, and I don't use this as a dismissive thing, but things like the loneliness epidemic, specifically we hear people talking about a male loneliness epidemic, or we see people who feel like their culture is being taken away because

DeDe Duncan-Probe (20:02.389)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (20:15.122)

of their racial identity or things like that. And then you see these churches popping up that say, no, no, no, you are good. And we're going to support this because we to reclaim our identity. need, and you kind of get the gist of what I'm talking about. How can we as people of faith be really clear about what it is we are offering with community and

I'm gonna maybe not use the great term, so you correct me if I'm wrong here, but how do we combat that tide when it comes to, because when people are lonely and they feel disenfranchised and they feel marginalized, they're gonna look for people who feel the same way that they do. How do we reach out to those people who are desperately seeking connection, who are desperately, like you said, seeking relationship without feeding into this kind of toxic Christianity? Your thoughts.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (21:10.701)

great, great question. And listener, you know, w what is it? And I think first, you know, I realized when you said it, toxic Christianity, we kind of need to unpack that a little bit. you know, coercive faith, 10 ways to know Jesus. I think these coercive things are not helpful. It is important to have standards. If you don't have standards, you know, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. yes. but when it becomes

the mindset of the group supplants my inner connection with God, connect disconnects me from my sense of right and wrong inherently in my faith, then we need to t take pause because we've given our agency over to someone else. And God isn't calling us to be agents of someone else. God's calling us to be children of God who are fine, defined and refined.

by the truth of Jesus Christ. And so that to to have clarity about that and not to fall into the trap of thinking that sameness means perfection or something. God didn't make us all the same. And so the truth of the gospel isn't is not a one size fits all. it is however the right size for each person. And so I think in when you're talking about that that toxic Christianity leapt out at me

as something to unpack because I do think Christianity that's dehumanizing, and when I say dehumanizing, I mean putting down, trying to talk about those people as if they're not good enough for God. You hardly ever hear someone say, you know, the reverse. unless it's well, we won't go into that. It can go on and on, but but to recognize that honoring one another is to honor God. And

It's really important to clarify what it is we're seeking a meaning by Christianity. I've I've had people say to me, Are you a Christian? and I'll say, Well, what does that mean to you? Because if you mean the things you're seeing on the news about hatred and people who are holding signs of hate and God hates these people and those people, then no, I'm not part of that. The term Christian Christian was originally given

DeDe Duncan-Probe (23:36.031)

to the disciples. It was not claimed by the disciples. I think it's really important when we're talking about our faith what it is we're known for and what it is we're trying to assert without any evidence of it. So I'm not sure I answered your question, but the toxic Christianity kind of jumped out that wanted to wanting to unpack that a bit.

Adam Eichelberger (23:58.104)

No, think, I think absolutely. And I think that it's something for us to keep in mind as we look at how we as, because by and large, I'm talking to those of us who are part of the audience, who are listening, who are, who are Christians, that we, we have to keep that in mind. Like, what is it that we are doing that is preventing people from being their whole and authentic selves? Because that's who God calls us to be. That's who God wants a relationship with.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (24:12.009)

Mm-hmm.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (24:25.845)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (24:25.987)

There's no sanitized version of it. think that sometimes faith, specifically Christianity, will demand this sanitized version of you. That once you've confessed the right way and done the right things and said the right prayers, then you're good enough and that's not what it says. And I think that that's mindful for us to keep in mind.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (24:42.951)

No, in fact, it really is. And to recognize that Paul even talks about, you know, that which I wish I did, I don't do, and that which I don't I shouldn't do, I don't, you know, back and forth that we're not perfect. And that but it is in our weakness that God has made manifest. And so our goal as Christians isn't to get it right. Our goal is to be in right relationship with God, to allow God to move through us and do with us.

the right things. And so there's it can sound like a subtle difference, but it means it's a huge difference because it either steers us in the right direction or not. Now I want to get back to one of the things we started out talking about, which is is Christianity and being in a church good or helpful? Because you know, on a Sunday morning, I like anybody, could, you know, think, hey, go into the local coffee shop and

Reading the newspaper and talking with the barista and you know, meeting neighbors and having chit chats is just as positive as going to a church service and worshiping God. I get just as much out of it, it's just as much benefit. And in some ways, I can cautiously say I get that. this the social aspect of it, the fellowship, the quietness, the time to think and process, to engage with the world, and maybe even pray over the world.

As we're reading that newspaper and thinking about it. But the thing that's different when we go to church is creating space in our lives to worship and praise God. Going to church isn't something we do to necessarily get something, although we do get things out of it. We go to church to gather as other created beings of God to worship and glorify God. And in doing so, it changes us a little bit every time. It

bring something out. We hear the words again of scripture together in community, read out loud. we hear someone talk about, so what does this mean, these passages in our lived life? We have an opportunity to talk with people who are different than ourselves. We often get in these bubbles. You go to church and you're gonna have, you know, Republicans and Democrats and independents and people who don't vote and all of it. We're all gonna be there together in conversation.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (27:05.897)

There's great value in that coming together. The church is a meeting place, but especially the church as a worshiping place that centers itself on God, that it really fine-tunes our ability to focus on God being bigger than what we're in. And so I am an advocate for going to church, especially maybe because when we lose a loved one, when we are getting married, to have community around us that has shared values or shared understandings.

a community that walks together and forgives one another and practices how to talk about God with each other, those are really good things. What's harmful is when those things become toxic. And then we need to address that and say, you know what? Gossip, slander, you know, judgy, these conversations, power mongering, you know, who's up and who's down, who's in, who's out, who's part of the fabric, who's not.

That's when a church just gets corrupted by the fact that you have a bunch of imperfect humans trying to do something they don't normally do. So, listener, as as we talk about speaking of faith, the value of church is personal and communal. It's individual and global. It's about us learning from each other.

How to be more ourselves. And we need each other to be ourselves, to be seen and to have someone with him to share.

So I think that's it. We haven't gotten any questions lately or com comments. So you just let me r ramble on. so please do send in those questions and comments. I want to make a mention that we're going to be going on summer break. We take a little break here and we'll be back mid September to pick the mantle back up and continue talking. But in the meantime, in August, I hope that you too will take some rest time.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (29:08.309)

Phew, some time to breathe and to allow yourself some space to be whole and be a person. And during this time apart, to be talking with one another about faith. What is hard for you to talk about when it comes to your faith? And what would you like to talk about all day about your faith? And share some of those things with us so we can make that part of this podcast and make this a better podcast suited to your needs and to the needs of our world in this time.

So, with that, may you be blessed and be a blessing. I look forward to speaking with you again in September. In the meantime, we'll be running some some previously run episodes of the podcast. So you will have things to listen to, but I encourage you to spend time renewing your own faith so that together we may deepen our faith as we speak of our faith. Blessings to you, blessings, blessings. I look forward to seeing you soon.