Dealing With Betrayal

What do we do when trust is broken? How do we tell the truth without becoming judgmental? And what does forgiveness actually look like when our hearts are still hurting?

In this episode of Speaking of Faith, Bishop DeDe and Adam explore one of the most painful parts of being human: betrayal. Whether it's a broken friendship, wounded trust, disappointment in leaders, or the grief that comes from living in a fractured world, betrayal leaves deep scars that aren't easily healed.

Together, they reflect on what Scripture teaches about truth, accountability, compassion, and forgiveness. Looking to Jesus' encounters with Peter after the resurrection, they ask what it means to offer peace without abandoning healthy boundaries, and why trust remains one of the greatest gifts we can give another person.

This conversation reminds us that following Christ doesn't mean pretending we aren't hurt—it means learning how to carry our wounds with grace, allowing God to transform them without letting betrayal define who we become.

In this episode:

• Why betrayal often hurts more deeply than other kinds of grief.
• The difference between telling the truth and using truth to wound.
• Why trust is a gift—and what to do when that gift is misused.
• How Jesus models forgiveness while still calling people to accountability.
• Why compassion for ourselves is essential when we're carrying grief.
• What healthy boundaries look like after trust has been broken.
• How faith helps us move forward without becoming hardened by our pain.

Where have you experienced betrayal, and what would it look like to seek God's peace without allowing that betrayal to define your future?

If this conversation encouraged you, share it with someone who may be carrying grief or struggling to rebuild trust.

Send us your questions and join the conversation as we continue learning how to speak of faith together.

AI Disclosure: To support our staff in their limited time, some of our episode summaries are first generated by AI and then edited by the Communications Director to accurately reflect and preview our podcast episodes.

Transcript

DeDe Duncan-Probe (00:01.954)

Hey friends, welcome to the podcast Speaking of Faith, talking about things that can be very difficult, hard to do, and just complicated. And this is the purpose of the podcast is to empower all of us to be intentional and thoughtful about how we speak about our faith and encourage us to practice and to engage because in this world, in this time, I really believe it's an essential time.

for people of faith to be speaking and inherently in that, listening to how God may be calling us to live and proclaim the love of God. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I am the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York. I'm joined by Adam Eichelberger. He he is our communications director and I'm really grateful to be on this journey with him. And today we're going to talk about something we've talked about it a bit a few podcasts back.

about grief. But I've been thinking a lot lately about betrayal and grief. local experiences and many ways, globally, there's a lot going on where there this has come up in a lot of different conversations. And I've been thinking about when we feel betrayed. And then in this time where we're just feeling grief, maybe we feel betrayed by, you know, we thought that the advancement of technology would bring

a greater, you know, would be more like Star Trek where everybody's, you know, living c together. So you trekies out there know what I mean, that we would be more engaged or that, you know, social media would help us to be more socially connected and instead it's been isolating that maybe AI would really help us so that would disseminate more information, not recognizing it might also disseminate more mistruths and misappropriation.

And so just in our daily life, the role that betrayal and grief may be playing, and how we're feeling. And for this podcast, how we're speaking about faith. We're called as people who love God, and I'm speaking from a Christian perspective, from an episcopal perspective, we're called to be truth tellers, to be proclaiming truth. And in this world,

DeDe Duncan-Probe (02:25.334)

There has been a growing value on misinformation, on mistruths. There's entire corporations whose job is about kind of spinning things in ways that aren't aligned with truth telling. And so part of being a person of faith is to be speaking about truth and what we see as moral and good and the right ways, quote unquote, to be.

And then part of that can s then become really changed or morph into this sort of holier than thou or judgmental or you know cutting off of of the reality of the human condition. And when you add to that this sense of grief in the context in which we live, it can be kind of confusing. We're trying to love and honor the dignity of all humans, but then we also want to be truth tellers.

So where are the lines, where are the the guidelines? We're like in bowling, where the the bumpers we need to put in place to keep us aligned with the teachings of Jesus. And I think the the good news for us is we have a lot of reference points. Jesus with the hemorrhaging woman or or Jesus with the woman at the well, or Jesus with Peter, you know, Jesus' commandments about loving our neighbors ourselves.

about forgiving 70 times seven. These places where we're called into a different way of being. And yet when we look at this world, we think, well, you know, isn't that part of the problem? Is people just being so kind of wishy-washy that anything goes. And so on this podcast, I want to I want to talk about this a bit because I think it is on one hand fairly clear. And on another,

Very complex, very hard to figure out. And so let's I I want to start with this understanding of what is true and what is right and what is good. That we are, in fact, the truest thing we can say about the human condition is that we are broken and flawed. We need help. We need the salvation of Jesus. If we're Christians, we need to have a right mind. And so that can involve work.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (04:49.311)

It involves accountability and respect for the dignity of one another. It involves being willing to be wrong. And a lot of times what we're seeing in our culture, people don't want to be wrong. They want to be right about everything. And even when they're caught being wrong, they want to justify it in some way. Like, but what I really meant was instead of saying, you know, you make a good point. I am sorry, I was wrong.

And I think we talked a few podcasts back about the four statements of wisdom. If you didn't hear that or if if if we didn't, if that didn't make it into the cut, then here they are to be able to say, I need help, I was wrong, I'm sorry, and I don't know. Those are real power statements because they're very countercultural. I mean, how many ta times today have you said, I don't really know, or I'm really sorry, or I need help.

or all you know the others. So for us as people of faith to start with a truth that we need help, that we don't know, and that we are sinners saved by grace is the a way to say it, but that we we know that our instinct may be for hate or for harm when when we are called to live into the forgiveness of God, that we offer love and forgiveness.

for others and for ourselves. And this pit can begin within our own hearts, our need to be truth tellers about the games that the ways that we may be not telling the truth about our finances or what we're eating or what we're really doing. And to be honest with ourselves. And then with that accountability, I think accountability is essential in truth telling because all truths don't need to be told. Some truths are told to be harmful and then we've crossed a line.

So these are delicate balances with truth telling. And then with the grief that comes with knowing that we have failed, or that someone has failed us, or that we have betrayed a trust we didn't mean to, or that those trusts have been betrayed that we placed in someone. And so these places of our humanity where it can be really painful and difficult to heal and recover from grief or betrayal, from failing or others' failings.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (07:14.453)

And so as people of faith to to recognize when we're talking about things how we might be inviting others into accountability, but also into humility and vulnerability, into curiosity and wonders we've talked about on this podcast. And so I do want to mention like with grief, there are aspects of it where it's very physical feeling. We we feel weighed down, we feel more tired.

unable to sleep or sleeping too much, feeling like we just can't quite catch up because our heart is so heavy and burdened. And so when we feel that way, a real game changer in all of this is compassion, that we have compassion for ourselves and recognize it can be very hard to be a human being right now. With all that's happening in the world, maybe the best we can do to love our neighbors ourselves is to start with having compassion.

For our inability to do everything. And so maybe we need to take time for self-care to just not fix everything, to not be right about everything, and to have compassion with our own inability to be perfect. And then to offer that to someone around us, with our family members or friends, to say, you know, what if instead of push, push, push, what if we just

sit outside and look at the trees and listen to the birds for an hour together and just let ourselves be. We've talked a lot about being human doings on this podcast, but in this time with grief and betrayal to live into being a human being. And then when talking about betrayal, whether it's our own failing or someone else's failing, to recognize what that means, that it is a grief. It's a breaking of relationship.

It's harmful and painful. And we may want to rush to fix it. We may be very uncomfortable with discomfort. And so when we feel grief or we feel betrayed or we feel like the truth needs to be said, or we feel like people aren't doing what we want them to do, we want to rush in and quickly dispel that uncomfortable feeling, the the ick, as our young people might say to us.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (09:40.299)

We want to fix it quickly. And maybe what we need is to sit with it for a minute and think, you know, how does it feel right now to be me in this situation? How does it feel in this situation? And then as I'm feeling what it feels like, the reality and the truth of it, where is God right now? Where is God in me? Where is God around me? And

How am I finding God in this time? That can be a great conversation starter with another person to say to them, where are you finding God in this time? And how does it feel like God is either irrelevant or often what we feel is, well, God is wrong? I have shared quite a bit about the person who said to me, I tried loving my neighbor and it didn't work.

I've preached about it and talked about it and it was a gift to me. I don't mean in any way to be putting that person down. I think we've all felt that at times, that our faith fails us when we're compassionate and kind and generous and someone takes advantage of us. When we're understanding and someone betrays our trust, when we're seeking to be helpful in a world and then find that we're getting crushed by it. We can sort of find resentment and think, you know, why didn't Jesus tell us to, you know.

Tell people to step back. And that's when we have this wonderful example of Jesus in the temple saying, Look, I'm setting a boundary for you, the, the, the money changers in the temple. This is not what we're called to be about. So for us, being truth tellers and being people who are offering forgiveness in a time where many of us are feeling grief or betrayed, the balance of that is a working out of our faith.

St. Paul tells us to work out our faith. And part of that is to live with the unknowing, to offer it before God, and then to go back to that place of saying, you know, I don't understand this. I feel terrible. I am confused. I'm kind of angry. But I still believe that God knows. I still believe that God is right. So, how in this place of feeling these things will I continue to seek God?

DeDe Duncan-Probe (12:01.375)

And believe that God is tr is right and true and good. Those conversations with other people in this seeking way can really be healing when we're struggling with grief and betrayal. And so I want to speak of speaking of this meta discourse, I want to bring you into this, Adam, to talk a bit about grief and betrayal and failing and just this human condition of struggling with all that's happening in the world globally.

you know, locally we're there's a lot of this happening right now. So what what are thoughts on your heart or your mind about this?

Adam Eichelberger (12:41.698)

Well, obviously, listeners, viewers, as you join us, the questions I have for Bishop Dee Dee are obviously questions that we ask you. So we want you to kind of put yourself in her shoes and and and think about that as I kinda posit these. And the the first thing that came to my mind, especially in we we've talked about grief on the podcast and and and that woundedness that we feel, but betrayal seems to be a very specific kind of grief and pain. It feels

To me, in my own experience, when I've encountered betrayal or a breaking of trust, that that seems to be kind of the the the cut that cuts the deepest. And I guess just as we are kind of getting into this discussion, why do you suppose that betrayal seems to hurt so much more than like other kinds of hurt that we experience? Or do you feel like it does hurt worse than others?

DeDe Duncan-Probe (13:17.889)

Mm.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (13:33.897)

Well and listener, this is one of those places where Adam's asking you the question as much as me. This podcast is not about me being right or this is about I often say what I think and they are the things that I think you're invited to not agree and to have your own thoughts. and to then to talk about it. And most of all to be in conversation. You know, I think for me, betrayal hurts more because it's you know, it's a little bit like the the tagline I think from some

shark movie, but this time it's personal. it's it's it's one thing for there to be a grief where someone has died after suffering with an illness or when there's been a loss or when there's been a grief that the situation of the human condition is what it is. But when someone betrays our trust, I think one of the reasons, and this again is my thinking, that it hurts is because we feel a bit complicit.

We feel like, you know what? I shouldn't have trusted that person. I knew there was something wrong. And we want to defend ourselves and we kind of feel like we're part of the problem. Like if we had just closed ourselves off and not trusted them, then we wouldn't feel grief. And the problem with that is it's not actually true. This is one of those places where our mental state will play a trick on us where we think if we like when we're trying to anticipate a bad thing happening.

If we just have if we're negative and if we're like, the sh next shoe's gonna drop, and we kind of buffer our hope with a sense of it's gonna get bad, then we won't be so disappointed. And really the problem with that is then we're not just we're still gonna feel disappointed, but then we didn't get the benefit of having some hope to buoy our feelings. so in this case with a betrayal, it really is personal and that it breaks trust.

someone or something we thought we could believe in betrays what we thought and it's destabilizing in an additional way to just the grief of what happens. Whether it's the loss of the friendship or the loss of the opportunity, it feels like it really is done against us and is personally harmful. And and many times those feelings are are valid. I mean that is they're

DeDe Duncan-Probe (16:01.033)

It's true that when someone betrays our trust, that it is personal and they have harmed us and to help ourselves to be compassionate with ourselves and say, you know, whenever we offer trust to someone, it is a gift we're offering them. And if they can't receive that gift, and if they throw it kind of back in our face to, for example, because they betrayed us, then our trust comes back to us and we can know that we've done a good thing.

We're sad about what has happened. If we had known more, we might have done something differently. But now we know better. And so we know with this particular person or situation or or technology or whatever it is, now we know that the boundary. And sometimes that boundary setting is also painful because we just don't want it to be that way. I think it's I think betrayal is harder.

I guess all of this that I'm saying because it's more complex. It hits on more things than just a loss, a sense of deprivation of a person or a love or a situation.

Adam Eichelberger (17:13.494)

I I really like what you just said about trust being a gift. And I I really think that that's important for us to be mindful of that it's that it there's not a whole lot of things that we can give somebody like wholly W H O L L Y, and trust is one of those things. I I I'm interested to explore a little bit how God fits into betrayal. Now

Let me clarify, I'm not saying that God betrays people. but what I mean is I think that we have a lot of examples in scripture of betrayal occurring. I mean, Joseph, Joseph's brothers sell him off. if we look at the story of Jesus, Jesus kind of spends the latter part of the gospels being betrayed by a lot of people. and so w exactly everyone, what can what can we learn?

DeDe Duncan-Probe (17:44.127)

Yeah.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (18:04.564)

Everyone.

Adam Eichelberger (18:11.215)

from scripture about God's presence in our own experience of betrayal.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (18:18.559)

Wow, it's a great question. And all you theologians out there and those of you thinking about this, you know, to take a minute and reflect on that question. you know, the thing that springs to my mind first, because for me as a Christian, Jesus is the, you know, Jesus is the pattern I'm following. And so when I look at Jesus with the people that portrayed him, you know, especially the post-resurrection stories.

You see Jesus going back to the disciples, and Jesus' first words to the disciples speak volumes, and we often overlook it. But the first thing Jesus says in each of those post-resurrection narratives is peace be with you. It's a statement of forgiveness, of recognition, of offering, of restoration. With Peter, he does say three times.

Do you love me? You know the Lord that I love you. Then feed my sheep. You know, there's with Peter who's but who's, you know, betrayed him three times, which Jesus predicted. You know, Jesus said, You're gonna betray me three times before the cock grows. And Peter's like, no, I'm not. We've done that with people too. We've said, you know, I think this person's not very trustworthy. And then they betray us and we're like, I knew it. Why did I trust them? Because trust is a gift.

And it's an opportunity and it's a state, it's a sign of strength to trust someone. If someone can't receive the trust or is a bad steward of the trust, then they we can only know that by offering it to them. But it doesn't take something from us the way it feels like it does. And part of that is that self recrimination, like, I shouldn't have done this. But the truth is this person.

shouldn't have done what they did. And we need to keep the responsibility on the person because they can't learn otherwise. For for Jesus and Peter, if if Jesus said, I know you didn't mean it. That isn't going to help Peter. Peter needs to look full in the face of his betrayal and say, you know what? I'm going to commit myself to a better way of living. And then is restored. So I think for us when we think about our own dance.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (20:42.591)

If we want to say with trust and betrayal, is to keep clear about when we've trusted someone, we've offered them a gift, and when they betray us or when it is not returned or handled well, then we have a choice how we handle that. And we don't want to betray ourselves, kind of join in the the practice and be like, well, my trust has been betrayed, so I'm never trusting again. Well,

Relationship involves trust. So then we've allowed that person's bad decision to then take away from our power, our ability to make a good decision. So with Jesus coming to the disciples right away and saying, Peace be with you, there is such strength, there is offering, and there's the opportunity for redemption. And we need redemption. We need those, we need those things. And when and then, because I can hear you, listener.

Some of you are saying this, I feel it. But does that mean that if someone has betrayed us, we should just trust them again? No. No, it doesn't. It means when your trust returns to you, unused or misused, we nurture our heart, we have compassion, clean it up, and then we place it in a better way and we offer it in a different way and recognize that this person is beloved by God.

We still care about them, but they are not able to handle the weight of that trust. I often think of it when I talk about it with people like you wouldn't have a six-year-old go drive a car because they're not ready for that level of commitment. They're not let l ready for that responsibility. Trust is a responsibility. When someone trusts us, we are then responsible to them. And if we can't handle that responsibility,

then that's where the work lies, not in, we'll never trust again. It's recognizing when a person is capable to receive trust, then we can offer it.

Adam Eichelberger (22:54.689)

I think that that's absolutely true. I I and it's it's so interesting, especially lately. We see so many examples of people who are in positions of of trust, whether it's leadership, w you know, all these places where we as people give trust and then they these people tend to let us down.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (23:05.589)

real.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (23:10.892)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (23:21.465)

I'm not saying it's everywhere, but it is prevalent. Like we see it a lot in government, in civic leadership, in the church. And I think it does dw it does drum up a lot of hurt. And it can create new wounds. It can open up old wounds. So my like like this next part of it is as we're talking about betrayal and we and we look towards what does forgiveness look like. I guess my my question is: what does forgiveness look like?

DeDe Duncan-Probe (23:21.505)

Mm-hmm. Detroit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (23:29.037)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (23:48.45)

for us when our feelings or our emotions haven't, I'm gonna use air quotes, caught up with our faith yet, because our faith tells us to forgive, but our feelings or our emotions, the way that we're being affected, sometimes those aren't in sync or at the same place. So how do we navigate forgiveness when these things aren't synced up?

DeDe Duncan-Probe (23:56.525)

Mm-hmm.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (24:08.193)

Well, and listener, what what how would you answer that question? you know, I right away I think, well, we need to have compassion. these are real feelings and it takes a while for us to work through things and not to feel that we need to r again at the top of the podcast talking about not rushing to fix it, but sort of sitting with it and say, what went into this? So I offered trust, it's been betrayed. What is the truth of it?

What have I learned from this? What do I want to learn from this? And how am I going to regroup and go forward? And part of that is an essential part of it, which is to talk about what forgiveness is and is not. and that is really important to get clear about because it can feel like forgiveness isn't anything goes. don't worry about it. You can just do this as many times as

And I'll forgive 70 times seven, which means there's no accountability. And the problem with that is nowhere in the gospel is that a gospel narrative. We are called to be accountable one to the other. So, so for us, what does forgiveness mean? And in each situation, trying to do the work of figuring out what forgiveness means. and I a small snippet, but I

You know, again, this is a whole podcast here. So, you know, Adam's gonna make a note right here. Forgiveness, what is it, what is it not? one aspect of it, which we've talked, I think, before on the podcast, is a setting down of kind of the blame and the need to be right and the proving it and the all of the things we kind of engage in at at times where we wanna be like, but they really hurt me and they did them, and we're letting those

that situation be in charge of how we feel about something else. So part of forgiveness is a letting go of I will no longer be governed by that. And part of it is I think we can't really forgive something unless we've really taken accountability, whether we until we've really had responsibility, whether it's the other person, like with Peter and Jesus, three times saying, you know I love you.

DeDe Duncan-Probe (26:30.135)

feed my sheep and then making that commitment to repair the breach. but I think for us, when the other person isn't repentant, it means for in our own hearts to do the work of saying, okay, how do I need to take some responsibility? And where do I need to make sure that when I'm offering the gift of trust, that I'm recognizing maybe I put too much trust on in a to a person who couldn't handle it and it was

unloving of me to expect someone with this brokenness to be able to sustain trust in this area and not taking responsibility responsibility for what they've done, but rather saying, you know what? Now they've told me they can't handle that trust. And I'm gonna recognize that. I'm gonna let this go, but I'm not gonna misplace my trust in that way again. And so it's all a a working together.

And it takes a lot of time and consideration. So, friends, this podcast, we're gonna put a a pin in it here, but the conversation continues. And I pass the baton to you now, or the microphone. how would you answer these questions? And I encourage you today or shortly in this next week to have a conversation with someone about grief and betrayal, where they may be feeling it, how we're doing with trusting others, and how we may be.

building up our ability to offer trust and hope to this world and then in our with our own redemption like Jesus to offer peace in this time. May you be blessed and be a blessing and keep speaking your faith. I look forward to talking with you soon. Take good care.