Bishop DeDe (00:01.411)
Hey friends, welcome to the podcast, speaking of faith. Something we find it hard to do or fun to do or a joy to do. I don't know what speaking of faith would mean for you, but welcome to our curiosity and our wonder in this podcast. You are part of the conversation. So come join us as we talk about things together. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I am the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York.
I'm joined today by Adam Eichelberger, and we're going to talk about something that really is in the news right now. And this last week I sent out a pastoral letter to the Diocese of Central New York outlining guidelines that have to do with AI. And so, first of all, I think we need to make sure we have the same language about this. What do we mean by AI?
Some of you may be, you know, on top of this and know some of you may have heard it and not really looked into it. But what I mean when I talk about AI is what's called artificial intelligence. It is a branch of computer science that builds machines or or in some cases data centers that are capable of simulating human intelligence. And when I say simulating human intelligence, that's really what it is. A large language model is what.
some of them are called because they use a large amount of language. They look at all of the things that are on the internet, collate it, put it together, mash it around, and then it's kind of predictive. It's like if I were to say, last night I read a Harry Potter novel. This illustration is actually on on the internet. So I'm using this almost like language model. But if I read a Harry Potter book last night and I was really interested to read
Harry Potter and the and if I paused, the next word I might say, whether it's philosopher's stone or the sorcerer's stone, there are percentages of how often sorcerer or philosopher is used on the internet. And so a large language model would predict that I might be about to say Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, for instance. But you already know that if you know anything about this series, that in the United States it might be one word and in the
Bishop DeDe (02:25.515)
United Kingdom, it might be a different word. So one of the ha pa the problems with large language models is it really is situational. It depends what large amount of language has been put through this processor. And then also, like anything that is a generalization, it's kind of garbage in, garbage out, or quality in, quality out. It's gonna really pump out whatever
bits it's picked up. So if you think of like some people have used AI for sermons. They've put in four words, said, write me a sermon on this passage. AI pumps out a sermon on that passage. Well what is not known is that AI has taken bits of sermons from all different places, all kind of hodgy podgy, taken bits and bits and bits, the most o often quoted words or phrases
And then just shoved it into a document. And so it could be just really garbage and not a great thing at all. and it could be something that actually is profound, but keep in mind the point of a sermon is for a human person to proclaim God. And so the humanity is missing from an AI-generated sermon.
while it may be predictive or used or sequenced based on what humans have written, it lacks the human expression of faith. And so it's dehuman dehumanizing at its very core. And so one of the reasons I wanted to put out my pastoral letter last week is because, you know, I've been saying for a while, the horse has left the barn on this. AI has been growing and growing and expounding.
And even now, more developments are being made that are around artificial generative or general, depending on which term you use, intelligence. And the this means that these let's say computers take these large language models and after it predicts what the next sentence is gonna be in the or next word in the sentence, then it starts saying, Well, you know what?
Bishop DeDe (04:49.795)
I'm going to start thinking on my own a bit more and start kind of it starts put coalescing information and generates something new. That is not developed right now, it's more theoretical than real, but technology is moving that direction and it raises real questions about what is communication, what is human, what is not human, what is true, what is not true.
Right now on the internet, there's a large portion of the internet net that is all AI generated. And you'll see this in images that are created. Images that look kind of weird or somebody may have six fingers on a hand or you may see somebody walking on water and it looks so real, but it's all AI generated imagery. It's like clip art where you take it out and you put it piece it together, only even more sophisticated than that.
And so it creates a real alternative reality when you start looking at it, where it starts, people can take your face or your your name and then create content as if you've said these horrible, terrible things. So it becomes increasingly necessary to question what we think we're seeing, what we're reading online. Is it as it was it really said by this person or is somebody
sort of tampering with AI and creating something new. There's a real question, and it's grown and grown to the point where everything we read and everything we see, when we look at images, we need to be questioning is this an accurate image? Did a human write this or is this something they're doing? Or has this been generated out of this amalgam of just information? The reason
in the pastoral letter that I that I sent to the diocese, I highlighted just a few of the ways that AI can be used to harm, misinform, or really tear down what we believe as people of faith. And now this whole first part, it sounds like I'm I'm not a computer scientist. I'm really in some ways this is a large language model in human form. I'm just repeating to you what I've learned and what I understand to be true.
Bishop DeDe (07:11.479)
But with the pastoral letter and who we are as people of faith, I know from the gospels that God is about relationship, relationship, relationship. Our relationship with ourselves, our relationship with one another, and most especially our relationship with our Creator. It's a very human context. Jesus comes to us in human form.
We are to be in relationship with one another as fellow people of the kingdom of God or the kingdom of God or God's community. And so when we utilize technology as with anything in our lives, to utilize these opportunities for the well-being of one another, where we're not participating in dehumanization, we're not tearing down but building up.
what God is doing in our midst, which is a hum human endeavor endeavor. So my guidelines were when posting or reposting on social media to check and make sure that it's accurate, that we're not we're not contributing to something that's that's not true. And that it's used, AI can be used for research. You can just like like Google search is part of AI, you put in a word and you're like, what does this word mean? Or what does this phrase mean?
Or who said this phrase, and it comes up with an answer. And then you take that answer and you go and research it yourself. You utilize it as a tool, but not as truth. And so distinguishing between what is meant to help us and what can potentially harm us. you can read all of the guidelines online on the website of the diocese. So you can look at those and see those and
I encourage you to be talking about this and thinking about what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be in human conversation? How are we building up humanity? And in what ways might technology or divisions in our world be continually dehumanizing us and others around us? We don't want to participate in dehumanization, and we do want to participate in the betterment of people.
Bishop DeDe (09:30.273)
And then the last thing I would say in this, you know, kind of opening preamble is to be aware that whenever something new is developed, it's can be fearful, it can be it can be fear-inducing, really, and it can be strange and make us question if we're going to just be torn down by it. And always we have the choice how we're going to utilize it. So
Utilizing AI in our lives is a personal decision. Some have chosen they're not going to utilize it at all. Some utilize it as for search engines and just general things, but are aware of algorithms and that you never quite know because of the way the large language models work, if it's accurate or not. So you question it, you do your research, you engage with it, aware of the limitations of it. Just like using a phone.
There's times when making a phone call is a good idea. There's times when you really need to make an a date and go talk with the person in, you know, at a restaurant or somewhere safe because it really necessitates a face-to-face. And there's sometimes when sending a text or writing a letter are really the right response. All of technology needs to be utilized with humanity, morality, and in keeping with our best selves, honoring the relationship, relationship, relationship.
That we have as people of faith. We'll we're gonna Adam and I are now gonna get into a conversation, but I do want to say next week on the podcast, I want to talk a bit about the climate and global impacts of AI. But for today, we're just introducing it, introducing the guidelines and talking about why, as people of faith, do we have guidelines about AI? Why is this in our lane or outside our lane?
And so I would answer that question by saying it's definitely in our lane because we're here to honor God's beloved people. And so we need to be mindful when we're participating in something that has the ability to tear down, dehumanize, or harm others. And so all of us are part of living our faith in real ways and utilizing the aspects of our lives to build up our faith and one another.
Bishop DeDe (11:54.747)
So Adam, let me invite you into this, you know, kind of initial conversation we're having. And listener, if there's something I've said that you're like, what? You should have said this. That's this is when you write in and send in your questions. Let's have a conversation. Let's have a good conversation about faith and AI. So Adam, jump in here with this conversation.
Adam Eichelberger (12:18.168)
So one of the things I think it's really I feel like this is a really important moment for us to really dive into having this conversation specifically about the interaction of humans with AI. And I feel like this is something that is very much in the com the public discourse right now. It's a part of the Zeitgeist. There are political and religious leaders from across the spectrum.
Who are engaging in this conversation. And and you mentioned in your pastoral letter that as a diocese, we have had this conversation going on, not necessarily about AI, but the the growth and expansion of technology for about 10 years now. Why how have those conversations kind of evolved over time since we started having these conversations?
Bishop DeDe (13:00.291)
Mm.
Bishop DeDe (13:08.969)
it's a really great question because I can remember when I ten year because I listeners, I've been as of December 2nd is when I was consecrated 10 years ago, but August 6th is when I was elected. for that length of time, we we began using Zoom, for instance, in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen, especially. We really started using Zoom. So we had conversations about what does it mean to use Zoom.
in meetings in the diocese and how are we how are we building up relationship and how might it be hindering relationships? And so we really focused at that time on on site or online, all in person, and then how what meetings or gatherings really need to be on site, you know, in in real time. And and what meetings or things could be held online like this
podcast, for instance, you notice that Adam and I are in different places. What things could we be fully present to? Adam and I are both in person, but utilize the technology. And so we had those conversations. Then we also in about 20, I guess 2018, no, I think it was 2017 also in that time, we talked about Facebook and Instagram and, you know, Snapchat and all the social media
that have algorithms and you know who's who are who do you see and who do you not see, those choices that are being made for you about the information you get, the vacuums of information that we're in. And so we really had conversations about how these tech these technologies, while they connect us, also isolate us. You know, the high rates of depression with with social media and the, you know, the way that
identities and egos are harmed, especially with young people who are online too much with social media and can get, you know, all have wrong views of themselves as not skinny or fast or smart or good enough. And so we've talked about those harms for a long time. In the last year to two years in clergy gatherings with lay leaders with across the diocese,
Bishop DeDe (15:36.919)
We have talked more and more about AI at the House of Bishops. We've talked about AI over the last three or four years. and those conversations at first really centered around sermons and writing and having integrity about communications among leaders and and as people of faith. I think over the last year.
As AI and now AGI have come on the scene, those conversations have really centered more around what does it mean to be human and human engagement and the necessity of human engagement, the climate impacts of AI, the the next level. So I think over those 10 years you can really see a a real movement all related, all kind of part of the same conversation about human interaction.
But adapting as the technologies 'cause these are this is all moving. I mean, right now today we're talking about this. By next week it may be a new thing is to bend up. It's it's all a moving reality.
Adam Eichelberger (16:49.983)
I agree a hundred percent. And I I think it's I I really like that you kind of started to highlight, and I want to go a little bit deeper into this, change in innovation within technology. so the church, by and large, sometimes it is at the forefront of these things, sometimes it takes it a while, often embraces new technology. I mean, we can even look at things like the printing press as an embracing as an embracing of new technology to utilize
Bishop DeDe (17:13.941)
Mm. Absolutely.
Adam Eichelberger (17:17.609)
utilizing radio and television to live streaming. how is AI similar for us in the church as these kinds of innovations that we've utilized in the past? And then how may it be different?
Bishop DeDe (17:33.943)
That is a great question. And listener, this is where you're part of the conversation. What would you say? I'll tell you what I say. I'm gonna get to I was so glad you were brought up the printing press. You probably did that because you know I had this thing about it, but you know, after the plagues, society went through a response. Every time there is a plague, every time there is a a big thing, there are
predictive patterns that humans go through when they have faced life and death as a part of living. And so with the plagues, and then you have the printing press, the dissemination of information and the leveling or the the way in which it empowered anyone to be able to write or engage in a way and change language forever, because before the printing press,
You had these very, you know, strong restrictions on who could whose voice could be heard really, when you're talking about the dissemination of information. So with the printing press tracks and putting things out, and you know, suddenly it's egalitarian. Anyone can be, you know, putting things out. And so that means too, that you have a a shifting of the elite of academia and intellectuals with the common person.
have an equal voice. And so on one hand, that's a wonderful thing because it is it empowers everyone to have a voice. On another hand, it can be detrimental because people who know nothing about something suddenly write a book as if they're an expert and are trying to put themselves forward as knowing as much as someone who spent all of their life researching something. Well, right now today we see that very live
every day. We see people who write a book. I mean, not long ago. There have been, you know, reporters and journalists who've written theological treatises on the Bible who have never been to seminary, never studied Greek or Hebrew, don't have any idea about certain things, but have approached it like a journalistic article. And so those books alongside a biblical scholar are different
Bishop DeDe (20:01.261)
Things, a biblical scholar who spent their whole life studying the, you know, Bible versus someone who's kind of writing something that's like, well, I am reading it in English, and this was what it looks like, it sounds like to me. we're seeing that same pattern today. And after you know, the pandemic, part of your question is really when the pandemic and the shutdown happened.
The church was forced to do something that I don't think it would have done for over it would have taken much longer for the church to utilize technology with Zoom for prayer and Zoom for Bible study and Zoom for conversation or whatever platform. I'm using Zoom, it is, you know, online. suddenly for the church to be the church, the church had to go online. That quickness of shifting was very difficult.
And especially around our Eucharistic theology. So we are struggling with it just like someone in the 1500s might have struggled with it, but in a very different way. So what is different is, you know, when when you're struggling at a time where it's all localized, where the struggle is in your village or your geographic area that you can ride a horse across.
you have homog you know, a homo homogeneous population more, you have different things, and so it's going to take a certain form. Right now what's hard is you have this explosion of AI that is global. So the cultures in other parts of the world that are on the other side of the world with cultures in our side of the world, it it's a it's it really becomes hard.
to translate that into meaningful form that isn't just kind of a weird funhouse mirror that's reflecting badly on humanity. And I think, you know, the difference using the metaphor of a mirror, if you think of the, you know, 1400s, and it may have been like an old lead kind of not a very good mirror, but you know, you could kind of see the image. And today it would be a like looking in a prism.
Bishop DeDe (22:24.853)
And trying to see an image. It would be so much happening. So I think there's a real danger in how it will distort our view of humanity. I think it has the potential to distort our understanding of what is true and right and good. It has the ability to distort what we believe about ourselves or the world. And so it is very complex, the dangers of it.
Adam Eichelberger (22:52.409)
I agree a hundred percent. And one of the things that I appreciated about the letter, not to be blowing our own horn here, but one of the things I appreciated is the fact that we have to look at this and see that there is a reality that, like you said, the horse is out of the barn and we have to understand what it is that's in front of us instead of lighting it on fire. Like I know I'm sure that I and like you said, you have a a lot more basis and grounding in knowledge of how culture, faith
Bishop DeDe (22:57.475)
Mm.
Bishop DeDe (23:07.181)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (23:13.643)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Eichelberger (23:22.079)
And everything changed with the advent of the printing press. This is kind of one of those moments. And you highlighted this. It's it's the rapid pace at which this is moving. You know, every I think all of these markers when we talked about technology prior to this were like, this is a thing and it's happening, and there's this time to breathe and adjust. The I think the main difference right now when it comes to AI and its proliferation is the speed at which it's happening. It's happening so rapidly.
Bishop DeDe (23:31.031)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (23:45.749)
Well absolutely. Well, if you think of they did a study years ago, and this is how old the study was, time to a million users. For the radio, it was like 20 or 30 years. For the phone, it was like 10 years. I'm using you can look this up somewhere. You can look it up online. but anyway, there was like 10 years. The you know, the computer is like five years, and then Facebook.
Time to a million users was less than 24 hours. So the rapidity, like you're saying. And so we don't have time right now for our natural way of assimilating newness. We need space with things. We need time to consider it and contemplate it and kind of get our head around it. For a lot of us, the idea of AI just seems so overwhelming and foreign. How do we get how do we think about it? And we don't have time.
For that gradual general assimilation, it's just moving so fast. And so for our faith, because I anticipate this would be maybe your next question, the one of the issues is morality or dignity or dehumanization. How do we stay ahead of this landslide of change and maintain our footing on something that's l similar to solid ground? And
It's very difficult to do. And so we really have to start with those things we know to be true. And one is that we believe in a higher power and in the Episcopal Church. You know, we believe in God, the Trinity, the three in one. And that we believe that Jesus commanded us to love one another, that we're better when we forgive one another, we're better when we care for one another. And that with AI,
what used to be a global world where it took days and days and years really to get around it or across it. It takes a moment now for a com you know, you can instantly be in Thailand online. to go back to the grounding of our humanity, of nature, of a world that while it's shrinking and smaller, is also a world where we're better when we follow the tenets of our faith.
Bishop DeDe (26:12.319)
And so to not lose track like we're in a washing machine with all this change, it's a very challenging time for humans to not lose their humanity.
Adam Eichelberger (26:24.502)
I agree a hundred percent. And it it almost feels like drinking from a fire hose sometimes when it comes to this. Yeah. You know, as and like you said, Bishop, this is gonna be part of a much larger conversation. We're gonna have more conversations about this on the podcast. But I would say as we kind of wind down this part of the conversation, first of all, listeners, I I highly recommend if you visit our website, cnyepiscopal.org.
Bishop DeDe (26:29.077)
absolutely. Or the Niagara Falls or something. Yeah.
Adam Eichelberger (26:52.666)
You'll find the letter to Bishop's pastoral letter on it on AI and technology. As we kind of wrap up this part of the conversation, Bishop, what if if you could leave us with one guiding principle for navigating this moment in technology, what do you think it would be?
Bishop DeDe (27:15.233)
Hmm. This is when you know that Adam has not told me these questions in advance. and so, listener, what would you say? I think, I think differentiation. Do not get caught up in the maelstrom, but stay grounded in faith. Know who you are, opt out when you need to opt out, stand up when you need to stand up, but be differentiated.
Just because everybody else is doing it, like our parents taught us, is not a good reason to ever do anything. And so to be differentiated. And so if we feel that we can use Chat GPT or Claude or Google AI or Apple AI or whatever AI platform you want to talk about or engine, and we can do it responsibly and it doesn't seem to be harming us, then to have curiosity about it and
to stay stay alert, stay differentiated, stay awake with it. And you know, I I'm just gonna leave that there. Paul tells us to be alert, to watch out, and to not lose track. And so I think differentiation in this time is essential because we can get lost and we can get turned around. Everything that's possible is not good.
Everything that it seems true is not. And so to be self-differentiated, to take personal accountability for how we utilize any technology. When we drive a car, we need to drive a car with safety and care in mind. When we utilize the internet, we need to utilize it with safety and care in mind. So, and then there is no reason we have to let somebody else's emergency
Be our emergency. We don't have to go faster than we want to go and to take your own pace and then be curious. Well, friends, I will be looking forward to you writing in. I feel that this podcast will generate some responses. So please do generate those responses. we're all learning together. This is, I think, asking questions is part of that differentiation.
Bishop DeDe (29:38.239)
Next time, I look forward to talking about the climate impacts of AI, things that you might not think about right off, and climate impacts in our own neighborhood here in central New York. So be part of the conversation. I pass the baton to you. How will you, as a person of faith, talk about AI and how might you invite someone around you into a conversation that helps you retain your humanity?
Seek God and love others as God has called us to love others. May you be a blessed and be a blessing, and we'll keep the conversation going. We'll talk soon. Take good care.
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