God In Our Worship

What are we actually doing when we worship?

Why do Episcopalians follow a liturgy? What is the purpose of the Eucharist? Why do we say the Nicene Creed, pass the peace, and gather around the table week after week?

In this episode of Speaking of Faith, Bishop DeDe and Adam explore how worship shapes us, forms us, and draws us deeper into relationship with God. Together they unpack the journey of Episcopal worship—from the opening procession to being sent back out into the world—and how every part of the liturgy is designed to renew, heal, and transform us.

They also discuss:

• What liturgy is and why it matters
• How worship helps us move beyond ourselves and toward God
• The connection between the Trinity and our worship practices
• The purpose of the Nicene Creed, prayers of the people, confession, and the peace
• The rich theology found in the Episcopal Church's Eucharistic prayers
• Why the Eucharist is central to Christian life and faith
• The mystery of Christ's real presence in Holy Communion
• How gathering around the table shapes us into the Body of Christ

Whether you're new to liturgical worship, a lifelong Episcopalian, or simply curious about how worship forms faith, this conversation offers an invitation to see Sunday worship with fresh eyes.

Send us your questions and join the conversation as we continue learning how to speak of faith together.

AI Disclosure: To support our staff in their limited time, some of our episode summaries are first generated by AI and then edited by the Communications Director to accurately reflect and preview our podcast episodes.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Bishop DeDe (00:02.798)
Hey friends, welcome to the podcast, Speaking of Faith. Well, we've been talking about the Holy Spirit, and today we're going to talk about how that translates into our worship. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I am the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York, Canada to Pennsylvania, Utica to Elmira, all the beautiful people and places in between. And I'm joined by Adam Eichelberger. And we are here today to have a conversation.

This podcast is not usually necessarily about any sort of didactic learning. It is about helping us all learn to speak about our faith, to articulate what we believe, and to be able to have better conversations together. So much of the time when we talk about faith or religion, it gets locked into, you know, shoulds and and and division and people fighting each other. My hope is in this conversation.

We can have humility, kind of wonder together about God, and then engage in creativity and conversation as a result of mutual building up of our ability to speak of our faith. So with that, today we're going to talk about our worship. I am going to be specifically talking about the Episcopal Church, but whatever faith tradition you may be in or have, some of these things may apply to you.

In the Episcopal Church, we're what's called an historical church or and a liturgical church. Our liturgy is the way in which we worship, and there's a pattern to it. And that pattern of worship comes out of scripture, tradition, reason. It is, of course, based on the Catholic breveries back with Cranmerite. I'm really working. I'm not going to get into the history today, although I find it fascinating, to be honest with you. I love the history of all of this because it all

knits together and informs how we worship. But what I really want to focus on is what's called an ordo. that's you might recognize as a beginning like ordination or but an ordo of our liturgy is a pattern, a way in which we engage with God that w takes us through the whole of our worship services. So when you go to an episcopal church on a Sunday morning and we're having Eucharistic

Bishop DeDe (02:29.774)
worship, there is a pattern to that worship that is intentionally meant to take us on a journey, a journey of healing and renewal, a journey of forgiveness, a journey of empowerment to then go out. So when we first enter in, we we come in with an introit or with a processional that brings us into the holy space. And the purpose of that is to change our focus from all that's been happening in our lives

To focus on God. And when we're talking about the Trinity and the Trinity in our worship, that coming into the house of God, that lifting of our hearts to the dance of the Trinity that's present with us. It is true that often those those first hymns center around creation or around Jesus, around a a person of the Trinity that's meeting us in this space. But we come in with that with that introit.

And we go right into praising God. Something that we don't often do or think about is adoration of God, glory to God, who God is, praising God. Sometimes when we enter into worship, we think of it as something we're doing for our souls, which we are. But the audience of our worship is God. So when we come into worship, we're there to praise God, to engage with God.

And to celebrate who God is in our lives. And so that understanding that we've been talking about who the Trinity is, the persons of God, God the Creator, God, Jesus the Redeemer, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, that spirit that's with us, that we're coming in and we're with relationship with all that God does. And so there is a collect that usually starts the service, the

Collects the prayers or the intentions of the day. Often, if you listen to the collect, you kind of have a feel for what the theme of the day is going to be about. It's going to talk about something that we're about to do. And then after the collect, we go right into the liturgy of the word, is what it's called, the first part of the service, where we hear the stories of faith about God, about what God has done in the world. And those readings, again, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Bishop DeDe (04:57.228)
or about the persons of God and how God has met us, redeemed us, and and and been with us. We there's a psalm in there, there's hymnity, all of it meant to inform us, remind us, renew us, gather us, all of these things. Henry Newen, which we talked about a few weeks ago, taken bre taken, blessed, broken, given.

The first part of the service is about this taking up about, you know, the blessings of God, about God's actions with us. And then the sermon is intended to connect those readings and those actions of God with present-day life, to proclaim Jesus, to proclaim God the Creator, to proclaim the Holy Spirit in this current moment, and to have a word about how we are with God and how God is with us.

And then you generally have like the Nicene Creed, which is an ho historic recitation of faith. Some people will talk about praying the Nicene Creed. I will say to you, I'm not big on that. It's not a prayer, it's a statement. And it comes out of the ecclesiastical councils. It's meant to be a codification of belief. And so while I understand the desire to pray it, it really is something that we're stating that roots us in the traditions of the church.

And then the prayers of the people, having heard what God's activity is, having listened to it be proclaimed, having been reminded of what the church is about, we hold the needs of the world before God. And it is the prayers of the people. It mentions usually by name the presiding bishop, the bishop of the diocese, the clergy of the parish, the priests. but it is about the people of God praying for the people of God, being the people of God.

And then after the prayers on certain Sundays, there's a confession that at that moment we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness. And it moves into the peace. Now, the peace is one of the most misunderstood parts, I think, this is my opinion, of the service. People think of it as either kind of halftime. we greet everybody and have a chat and talk about what we're gonna do for lunch.

Bishop DeDe (07:22.766)
or that it's meant to be kind of a lightning of the mood. But in the early church, the peace actually was the moment where you might or might not receive Eucharist that day because the peace was saying, I am part of what was happening here. It was a commitment to the community of God, to being part of God God's gathering meal.

And so saying the peace of the Lord be with you is to acknowledge God is here and I'm here and we're here in this together. And so was we often think of the the absolution as the moment where you're forgiven. So now you can receive communion because you've you've repented of your sins. In the early church, it was when you passed the peace. It was when you said, Okay, I am part of what's happening here.

The assumption was that we come to this with repentance. And then you have the Eucharist. And this is the part where, I mean, all of this buildup, then we get to the Eucharist. the first part of the Eucharist, the Sursum Corda, the lifting of our hearts, lift up your hearts, we lift them to the Lord. It is Jewish, predates Christianity. Important to recognize in this season when anti-Semitism is rife among us, that we are.

making a commitment here as siblings with our Jewish siblings. and part of our need for repentance and renewal is to recognize our own complicity and the harm that's been done to the Jewish people. So then we go into the what's called the anaphora and the very first part of the anaphora is we repeat the history, what God has done. You know, you the God, the creator

we talk about that you know Jesus born of the Father, we talk about what God has done. In each of the Eucharistic prayers, when you listen to them, there's a different theology, actually. in Eucharistic prayer A, I'm looking talking about write two. I don't have time today to go and write one. This would just be all didactic, which that's supposed to be a conversation. So I'm gonna limit this to not too much teaching.

Bishop DeDe (09:46.732)
But right to prayer A is kind of clean and neat as you want to say it, just a straightforward, very truncated history of of the church. it goes it's the shortest and it's f full and it's definitely full in its speaking of God, but it is narrow in that there's no creation, there's no mention of the birth of Jesus.

it is just going through Eucharistic prayer. And then prayer B, actually, you you will notice right away if you're listening, that it goes into creation. We give thanks for the goodness and love which you have made known to us in creation and the calling of Israel to be your people and your work in your word spoken through the prophets, and above all in the word made flesh, Jesus your son.

Notice all that's included in that, those few simple sentences. The the pe the Jewish people, the the recognition and the and then it goes on to talk about the Virgin Mary, the re you know, and Jesus as redeemer of the world. Prayer B is a fuller theological statement than prayer A. Both of them certainly sufficient. Just when you're listening to them, you can hear that movement of inclusion.

of creation, the prophets, Mary. so often in the church, prayer B is what we use during Advent and Christmas. It's where we, you know, if we're doing creation care liturgies, often we'll use prayer B because of the the the inclusion of that. And then prayer Eucharistic prayer C, totally different prayer. Really interesting the difference

It's actually based on a Roman Catholic Ordo where you have the Holy Spirit comes. It's just, I won't get too much into this. I realize I'm starting to talk too long and it's pre-didactic. but Eucharistic prayer C is very penitential. It's modern in its language. I mean, one of the things with Eucharistic prayer C that people often really appreciate the language of.

Bishop DeDe (12:10.464)
Is at your command, all things came to be the vast expanse of interstellar space, galaxies, suns, the planets in their courses, and this fragile earth, our island home. Poetic, meaningful, contemporary. Some people, it's also probably the most controversial of the prayers. And when I say controversial, what I mean is some people just don't like it. They feel that's a little

Too much. I actually happen to really appreciate it. I also like the fact that it's set up to be responsory. So the celebrant speaks, the people speak, it it goes back and forth. It's a very mutual, communal anaphora. And then Eucharistic prayer D. my heavens, this is history in the making right here. Eucharistic prayer D comes from the fourth century.

the language is very, very poetic. it also is has the harrowing of hell in it, very different from A and B. it also has this very expansive, you know, countless throngs of angels stand before you, serving you night and day, beholding the glory of your presence. They offer you unceasing praise, joining with them and giving voice to every creature under heaven.

We acclaim you and glorify your name as we sing. Very beautiful language. Also, interestingly, in this anaphora, it is really understood that this is all prayer. So when you when people use prayer D, it's most appropriate to put the prayers of the people right in the center of the Eucharistic prayer, because it's how it was written. It was written that you go along and you're saying all these beautiful things about God, and then you pray for.

people with it within this context, this framing of God's redeeming grace and all the angels of heaven. It's also worth noting that if you're someone who likes the chanting in church, the setting for this is totally different from the settings from chanting any of the other anaphras. This is fourth century. It has it's built on fourths. It's a different musical being and it's beautiful for that. It actually

Bishop DeDe (14:35.606)
And it's the most included prayer. prayer D is used by the Roman Catholic, I believe Coptic, Greek, Episcopal, Anglican, more denominations use this anaphora because it's so old. It's it all of us have this rootedness with it. And so I happen to love it. It is the longest of the anaphoras, and it takes the longest to go through.

But it also has this expansiveness to it and just I'm gonna say it old school charm that I happen to love. And so when we're doing something like a an ordination or something like that, I think Eucharistic Prayer D is just lovely and lovely for Easter, lovely for times of the year when you really want to stand on the shoulders of those who've gone before and recognize the fullness of of the

of God's grace and God's kingdom. So those are the four anaphras that we pray. Those are some of the the nuances of them. And so what does this have to do with the Trinity? Well, when you think about especially prayer D and this who God is and how we're praising God, the language we use speaks to what we believe God to be. And so countless throngs of angels and

And especially the chanting for that is so big. it's just big. and and then of course with with D, you have creator God. You have Jesus the Redeemer and the Holy Spirit, and but definitely the focus on God the Creator. In prayer A, you have this balance between God the Creator, Jesus Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit. It's very

It's very clean and neat, as it were. I keep coming back to that. And and then of course with C, it's a bit more human. It talks about, you know, that we've we need repentance. And so each of the prayers speaks to who we believe God to be and how we're going to engage with God. And each of the prayers takes us on a journey so that we who we are at the beginning of the service will not be who we are at the end of the service. And

Bishop DeDe (16:59.168)
And I want to definitely close by how we close out. taken, blessed, broken, given. One of the things that's if you're around clergy types, they'll be talking, if you talk about Ordo, they'll talk about the closing hymn. our Eucharists are based on the road to a mass when the apostles meet Jesus in their day-to-day life.

And when they see Jesus and realize who Jesus is, they jump up, remember, from the table and go back to Jerusalem to proclaim that they have seen the Lord. Our Eucharistic liturgies are written to encourage that type of jumping up. Once we've received communion, we are to go out into the world, having been replenished by the nourishment of the being with the body of Christ. In the Episcopal Church.

We are the church that leans into mystery. we believe in the real presence of Jesus. In the elements, in the people gathered, in the response in the liturgy. We believe that the real presence of Jesus is there. We just don't really say where. It's here. And depending on your understanding of Eucharistic theology, how the wine and the bread are treated,

will speak to your sense of elevation. if this is the, you know, transubstantiation, body and blood of Christ, or if you see it as representational, the purpose of the Eucharist is become the body of Christ, nourished by God's spirit and essence, and then sent out into the world, renewed by God, to go, therefore, into all the world and to proclaim Jesus.

And so the journey we've been on, we've come in, we've changed our minds, we've heard the stories of faith, we've listened to those stories be connected and proclaimed in today's world through the sermon. We've prayed for the world, we've reaffirmed that we're part of what God is doing historically in the church. We have celebrated the Eucharist with anamnasis. I should have mentioned this. we believe that the Jewish way of remembering.

Bishop DeDe (19:21.314)
That when we remember we're part of the original gathering, and the original gatherings part with us, that the apostles and the that we gather in Eucharist with all of God's kingdom, and then we're renewed in receiving the essence of Jesus, and then we jump up and we're sent out to go and to proclaim Jesus, the risen Jesus, the Redeemer of the world.

Whew, how was that? I think that was longer than I meant to go, but that's a lot to cover. And if you're still hanging in there, I'm really glad. because I hope this is helpful to you. So when we talk about talking about faith, first we do need to know the basis of our faith to have a grounding. So Adam, with all of that I've just thrown out there, which is a lot, how does this speak to you about the Holy Spirit and how we might be speaking about our faith?

Especially with our liturgy.

Adam Eichelberger (20:19.333)
One of the first questions I have for you, Bishop, is about liturgy itself and why this matters. Because I think, and we know, and this is really important to me as somebody who comes from a very liturgy focused background as a former Roman Catholic and now as an Episcopalian. We embrace liturgy. and it looks one of the things that I I appreciate about liturgical worship.

Bishop DeDe (20:24.013)
Yes.

Ha ha ha.

Bishop DeDe (20:41.592)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (20:48.355)
Is there is this room for it to look different in different contexts? There are some churches where liturgy is kind of a little bit what we would say like a low church, lower form of liturgy. And then there are higher church or higher forms of liturgy. a lot of times, friends, you may have heard the term smells and bells, that there's a lot more kind of maybe production value, if you want to call it that, that goes into these kinds of liturgies.

Bishop DeDe (21:10.102)
Mm.

Bishop DeDe (21:14.254)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (21:17.063)
But the reason why I ask this question about what is the value or the purpose of liturgy within our context of understanding and worshiping God is because you can see so much, especially in America, there are churches who gather on Sundays or whenever they gather, and there isn't necessarily a sense of liturgy. There's formula that they follow, but there's not this this kind of roadmap.

Like you talked about, you kind of lined out how it works from the moment we step through the door from the moment we go back out the door. And that you don't see that sometimes. And also that like this need that is so common in the American church to kind of up the wow factor. We need to make sure, like it almost feels like we're engaged we're we are engaging in entertainment more than we are in an act of worship. And I want to

Bishop DeDe (21:51.224)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (22:03.458)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (22:12.365)
I want to clarify that when I ask this question, I'm not trying to degradate the worship style of any other Christian community. Not by any means. But what I'm asking, what I'm getting to the root of here is why is liturgy so important to us as Episcopalians? Like why is this so crucial to what we do when we gather to worship?

Bishop DeDe (22:17.547)
No, right.

Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (22:33.174)
Well, what an essential question, Adam. And I really appreciate you mentioning that. Because, you know, for some people, liturgy is not helpful. They just would rather go to a church where someone preaches for an hour and there's a lot of singing and a lot of prayers. And then, you know, that's is very nurturing for their faith. and so, listener, this is where the conversation of this podcast really comes in, is you thinking

How would you answer that question and what for you is the value of a liturgy in terms of your own experience of worship? What I can say about in the church and my own appreciation of liturgy, because I there were times in my life where I attended churches where liturgy was very on the back burner. It really wasn't the focus of the worship. But what I have grown to appreciate more and more and more is coming into a space.

That even though there's differences and you have high and low Episcopal churches, if you go into an Episcopal church that's using the prayer book, within a range, there's going to be this way of worshiping and the pattern, the pattern of God, as Stancliffe would have said, the patterns of God take us on a journey that is engaging us beyond ourselves.

I appreciate the wonder of it. I appreciate feeling like when a good liturgy, you feel like you can rest and let the whole the spirit just move across you and and move in you and heal you, and that you can engage with Jesus and you can engage with your creator in a way that is safe and and and supported. And so it takes you out of yourself.

Liturgy is often talked about as the work of the people. And what that means is it's something we do cohesively rather than each of us sitting there and praying and thinking different prayers and being in different places, which of course is always part of any gathering. But when we're doing when we're working together in a liturgy, we're all kind of engaged in a movement that I think has beauty.

Bishop DeDe (24:55.488)
And is so unique in our world. there are things we do liturgically. I mean, Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade is often talked about as a liturgy, which it is. it is has form, it has function, it has, you know, patterns to it. But with worship, I think the value is one, kind of getting outside ourselves a bit to recognize that God isn't just something we contain within us, but God is beyond us.

And to recognize that the reason we are people of faith isn't because we only did something. I think one of the humanistic problems with just thinking that God is what we control is we'll never know the God that is beyond our knowing. And so liturgy allows us to engage with something with God in a much bigger, widespread, compassionate way than than with than we might otherwise experience.

and I think the pattern comes to us ages. I mean, when you're talking about the road to Emmaus, you're talking about down through the centuries, that which has been true at all times, to recognize our humanity, that there's value in this that continues to resonate. And for all of us to be engaged in this is such a gift.

Adam Eichelberger (26:20.635)
I'm glad you brought up the road to Emmaus, because it kind of starts something in me that I wanted to ask. it's interesting that as I've gotten older, when I look at the story of Scripture, and really not and not that it doesn't happen as much in the Old Testament, but really in the New Testament, there seems to be a lot of emphasis on the time that Jesus spends eating with people.

Bishop DeDe (26:47.329)
yeah.

Adam Eichelberger (26:47.569)
There is a lot there's a lot of stories about that in the

Bishop DeDe (26:49.878)
Yeah, in fact he got dinged on that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Those those partying Christians.

Adam Eichelberger (26:52.933)
Yeah. And so Yeah. And this is kind of a two-parter when it comes to like look first of all, like how did these stories of Jesus eating with people throughout the Gospels help us better understand the Eucharist? And then the second part of that, I believe it's John six. Jesus says, Whoever eats the flesh of the Son of Man and drinks his blood, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you, right?

How did the how are these things relevant to us as Christians, relevant to us as Episcopalians? You kind of started to highlight that about like how we gather, but why is this, why is there so much importance around the meal itself, especially when in the Episcopal tradition, more so than I ever saw when I was a Catholic, there's a big emphasis and a lot of conversation during liturgy, during Eucharist, about the table. So can you kind of maybe go a little bit deeper into some of that?

Bishop DeDe (27:50.514)
yeah. I'm glad you brought that up because it is, you know, it is Jesus' meal. And in the in the early Christian movement, you you think about n eating together and what that is socially, culturally, the coming together around a table, the sharing, breaking bread together, sharing and sustenance together, the mutuality, the being nourished together as a community.

And so yes, in the early church, in fact, you know, Jesu if you read the gospels, you you see over and over the religious leaders at the time were upset with him about who he ate with and how he was with the outcasts and the sinners, and then how they were always having these gatherings and always eating and they seemed to be always kind of those partying Christians and and the sacredness of fellowship, the sacredness of sharing meal together.

Of being nourished as a body of Christ. We are people who believe in one body, one cup, one church. We are one. And so coming together around the altar or table of Jesus and recognizing that we've come together to be nourished together. And so, what is nourishment in your faith? to be filled up with the presence of God, to be to repent. I mean, each.

Each Eucharist, whether there's an a call for repentance or not, is sacramental in being a repentance, a desire to change and be made new by God. Whatever has happened before the service, we're seeking to repent of that and be made new by taking into our very being the essence of Jesus. it's easy to get hung up on the body and blood as sort of a carnal, you know.

medieval, even earlier, actually much earlier, sense of bloodletting. But the the essence of Jesus, the real presence of Jesus in the wafers and in the wine is about something that's a spiritual essence. It is about a recognition that taking in and this this fellowship of meal around the table, it in in in doing we become.

Bishop DeDe (30:15.95)
And I've really been drawn lately to when I give people the wafer, that some of y'all have heard me say, you know, become be that which you receive the body of Christ, that sense of being, that we're sharing a meal together with a sacred understanding of of remembering of anamnasis, of breaking bread with the apostles, and being part of receiving real nourishment from.

the gathering together and g as Jesus' people. So it's very important the sense of meal. Clearly, Seder meals when you look at the history of the church, there is so much here, folks. I mean, one of the reasons I was hesitant to do this, I could talk for about two hours and it'd be super boring, maybe podcast could too long. But there's a lot here to unpack. And so if this resonates with you or you have questions or curious about it,

I encourage you to read about it and to talk with a clergy about it and to seek deeper understanding. there are some really wonderful books on you on our Eucharistic liturgy. James Farwell has a a great book on this. The Patterns of God is another one, Henry Nowen. thinking about how eating together and in and in taking in the essence of Jesus.

heals and renews us and empowers us to be God's people. And so there there's a whole whole lot around this that is important to consider. I don't know if I did I answer your whole question? I think you had two parts to it.

Adam Eichelberger (31:56.721)
No, yeah, I think you did. the last kind of question I had as we kind of wrap up our time this episode is and this I could be setting you up for disaster here because this is a big question, but I feel like we've talked about this a little bit on the show, but this I feel like this has a lot of room to be discussed here in the context of the Eucharist. we've talked often about the room for different

Bishop DeDe (32:09.15)
Yeah.

Adam Eichelberger (32:25.11)
thought and different belief within the Episcopal Church, within the Anglican tradition. And I feel like this is one of those topics where there is a variety of thought and belief. I'm going to be transparent about my about my own belief. As somebody who was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, who professed a belief in the Catholic Church, I have a hard time letting go, not necessarily letting go, that's not the right word. I have a hard time accepting the Eucharist

What I receive at church to be anything other than what I believe is the real presence of the body and blood of Jesus. I believe in transubstantiation. There are people I share pews with who don't necessarily believe that same belief as I have. And I think initially that was a little off putting to me. I was kind of like, ugh, like why don't why can't you get on board with this? I think it's really important though, especially for somebody like me, maybe somebody like you, friends.

Bishop DeDe (32:59.374)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (33:03.32)
Right, right.

Bishop DeDe (33:07.96)
That's right. Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (33:16.462)
That's right.

Adam Eichelberger (33:23.526)
to see the value in that diversity of thought. So why why do we leave so much room when it comes to theological perspectives on things like the Eucharist within our tradition? Like why do we leave that space at the table?

Bishop DeDe (33:41.651)
Well, it's a great question. And for those of you what listening at home, you'll have as many answers as I could ever give. I would say here that there are people for whom they feel absolutely certain that they're right about it. and think that everybody else should get on their train too. the Episcopal Church, when I talked about the real presence of Jesus, and this again is something that's worth reading about.

One of the re there were have been many times in the Episcopal in the Anglican church, in the Episcopal Church, when there has been great debate, conflict, people have died as a result, for Eucharistic theology. Is it the real presence, is it transubstantiation, the literal presence of Jesus, or not? and so

And the real presence of Jesus that's talked about in the Episcopal Church often gets kind of dinged for people saying, Well, you're just not taking a stand. And one of the things about the Episcopal Church is the via media, the middle way, and the openness to the fact that we don't really know. And I would say whether you're talking about the Roman Catholic Church or the Greek

Even though there are people who will go to the mat on this, all of us are not God. We are trying to understand God. And the mystery of the Eucharist is that somehow when we come together and we go through these liturgies and we hold ourselves before God and pray, and we receive a wafer and a sip of wine, something changes, something happens. And

When we try to say that we know exactly what that change is, I think we reduce God down to a humanistic soundbite. That's my opinion. I think that when we can allow the Eucharist to be bigger than our understanding, when we can allow God to be mysterious to us in ways that frighten us and delight us, then I think we come closer to allowing God to be God and being God's people in right relationship.

Bishop DeDe (36:07.97)
We don't get it. And Eucharist and I would say early on, long before in fact, when I could not be a Eucharistic a lay minister at the church where I grew up as an Episcopalian, and a visiting clergy handed me a chalice and said, Here, you know, serve the people. And then there was a great falder all about it because a woman was not supposed to be doing that. But I remember distinctly as a young twenty something.

The feeling of seeing people come forward and saying the body of the blood of Christ, the cup of salvation to them and offering that to them, there was a divineness in that, just electric. It was unbelievable the the sense of God's presence in that. and for me, that has always been the real presence of Jesus. So the the value of having broadness is each of us meets Jesus.

in a different way and to recognize we've been talking about the the Trinity. For some of us, we may struggle with one of the persons of the Trinity. Because of family issues or whatever, God the Father may be a very difficult person of the Trinity to really relax with and feel welcome and and and that may be a a struggle. Jesus may feel a little too humanistic for some.

The Holy Spirit may be too nebulous for others. Each of us kind of has a we're on a journey. We're learning about God and how we understand these persons of the Trinity today may be different in a year. As we grow in our faith, we may become more befriended to the Holy Spirit or the God the Father or Jesus. So in our Eucharistic theology, to allow people to come as we are.

And allow God to meet us as we are, the diversity empowers God to be God. There is boundary. This is not I actually bristle when someone talks about scripture as the lore. no, no, no, no. Because have some respect. A lot has gone into this scripture.

Bishop DeDe (38:26.562)
People have died, monks in the dark, have gone blind. I mean, it is it we are inheriting something that we I think when we sh show respect for it, we show respect for ourselves. with the liturgy, it is not something that we should be, you know, casual about. We should wrestle with it. what debate that I think we'll be getting into because of this speaking series this series on the podcast is open communion.

And that probably is the next conversation we should have is around open table and what that means and what the debates are. It is good to have debate about this because it is important. This isn't just something we do. It isn't a drama. Someone you if you want to also get me riled up, you can talk about this being the a show. You can talk about being drama, you can talk about being a play art, you can talk about it being something like that. That demeans

this whole thing for what it actually is, which is us entering in like people have done down through the centuries to have a meal with Jesus around a table. So it is important, it is essential, and it is not just show. It is a spiritual walk. So I appreciate the conversation. We, you know, we'll continue this and I invite you, listener, now to

To think about this in your own life. What does liturgy mean for you? How, when you go into a service and it's a liturgical service, how does it draw you in? How does it heal your heart? How does it help you have words for God that are bigger or better or more clear for you? And then have conversation with others about it. we'll continue the conversation and talk more about it, but send in your questions.

And your feedback because I would love to know. what about this is confusing? What about this needs more conversation? What about this is upsetting and you just don't like? we're all on a journey with God and we're not going to like everything, but we know that God is faithful in everything. So, dear friend, may you be blessed and be a blessing. And we'll have conversation again soon. Take good care.