Bishop DeDe (00:07.533)
Hey friends, welcome to the podcast, Speaking of Faith. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I am the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York, and I'm joined today by our Director of Communications, Adam Eichelberger, and we're going to speak about our faith. And in this time, with all that's happening in the world, it is really difficult and challenging to speak of our faith. And so right away, I you know, affirm you and joining this podcast to even think about.
what it means to talk about what we believe, because when we speak about what we believe, it also encourages us to act on those beliefs. And as we look at this world and we look at what is happening around us, I think it's really a temptation to pontificate or talk about things or sort of spout off. And when we're speaking about our faith, it needs to root us in something we really believe. And what does that speaking of faith means?
What is it that we believe and where does that belief come from? And so one of the things that has been on my mind is I look at what's happening in Minnesota and the treatment of refugees and immigrants in this country, what's happening in the state of New York and in all the states across our nation, how we're treating the stranger in our midst, how we are perceiving those who are different from ourselves.
I think in the midst of all that is happening, to talk about our faith means to return perhaps to what we know to be true. And I've been really called to mind, what has come to my mind is the scripture and to look at what does the scripture say about strangers or immigrants or in the language of Leviticus, the alien in our midst, how are we to be as God's people? And so,
Leviticus 19, 33 through 34, I want to bring this out in the Hebrew scriptures. It says, an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the native born among you. You shall love the alien as yourself for you were once aliens in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
Bishop DeDe (02:37.258)
Now this scripture, I wanna start with the end first. I am the Lord your God. So when we're speaking about our faith, we're speaking about what we believe. And when we are believing that God is our God, whether it's we're talking about Yahweh or Jesus or how we conceive of God, what is it you believe to be true about God?
And how does that belief shape what you think about what is actually happening in our world? How do you see it? This passage could be written about today. This is a very ancient passage from a faith. And yet it's written, it convicts us even today that we are to treat the refugee or immigrant who lives in our land as one who is native born, that they have the same rights and privileges, that they are treated with the same dignity and respect.
And what we're seeing on the news and what we're seeing in our communities is that we're not doing that. We are not treating those who are strangers, refugees, immigrants, aliens among us, if you will, as native born. We are not following what God teaches us. Now it's tempting to say, this is political. Well, it may be if you're talking about the body politic, but it's certainly not partisan.
This is a matter of morality and faith. When we claim to be the people of God, that we love God and seek to live as God is commanding us, it changes our options. And so reading this passage in Leviticus is gonna shape how we see these things. And so I would say that what's happening in our world and what's happening in around us is not at all political or partisan, it actually is in fact moral.
What's happening is a moral conflict between how humans are and how God is calling us to be. And so at stake is our morality. So how do we talk about that? How do we look at this passage from Leviticus and bring it into our understanding of our faith and in our life? And if you're thinking, well, you're a Christian, why are you talking about the Hebrew scriptures? Good question, because then we could go to Matthew 25.
Bishop DeDe (04:55.363)
and see and hear Jesus telling us that however we treat the least of these is how we're treating Jesus himself. And especially if we go to 1 John 4 20, can hear the epistle tell us, those who say I love God, yet hate a brother or sister are liars. For those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen cannot love God whom they have not seen. Wow.
That is very convicting to me because there are times when I look at others and I just don't feel love for them. And so it's a conviction that then I need to repent, literally change my mind. And remember that I have said that God is my God. I have taken vows. I have subscribed to a belief system. And so part of that means that how I speak about things, how I believe about things and how it shapes my life that I have a choice to make.
Am I going to submit to the way of God and follow God's teaching or am I going to say, those are ancient things? Doesn't really apply. I don't like it that way. Humans think that greed is good. God says it's an abomination. Humans will say revenge is sweet. God says revenge, vengeance is not yours to offer. So our calling as people of faith is to love one another and to seek and act in this way.
And so when we see on the news and when we see what's happening in our world, as people of faith, we either choose to align ourselves with what God teaches us to be true, or we align ourselves with something other than that. And so then that is the moral, when you talk about a moral conflict within us, that is the moral conflict that we are either going to stand for what God teaches or we're going to abandon it.
And so when we talk about it, it's really is very challenging for all of us. So Adam, I've said quite a few things here. I want to welcome you to this conversation because I can't figure this out on my own. Part of speaking of faith is us figuring out together, us having conversation together about how we talk about and how we view what's really happening in our world through this lens of our faith. So what comes to your mind when you think about that?
Adam Eichelberger (07:18.553)
It makes me think about, you've talked about countless times on this podcast, the importance that scripture plays in our lives for those of us who are Christians, and that it becomes such a pivotal place for us to turn when we are facing these really difficult things that are happening in the world around us. And I wanted to kind of take a look at a couple of these.
these scriptures that you mentioned. And my first one that when I look at Leviticus, because I think a lot of the time, at least in my own journey as a Christian, like I kind of threw Leviticus out because it's long and there's a lot of stuff. And I kind of got, I said before we started like lost in the sauce with Leviticus, but Leviticus tells us to love the foreigner as ourselves because once we were strangers to.
Bishop DeDe (07:51.075)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (08:01.635)
Yeah.
Bishop DeDe (08:14.882)
Right.
Adam Eichelberger (08:15.569)
How, how, when we're, when we're talking about our faith through the lens of scripture, seeing what's happening in our country, revolving around immigration, how does that memory of God's people once being people who were vulnerable and displaced shape how we as Christians should respond to the current treatment of immigrants in our country today?
Bishop DeDe (08:41.859)
Well, it's a great question because one of the differences and I kind of feeling, I was waiting to see if you said this, you know, lot of us were born in the United States. you know, I'm, I'm not a first generation. I'm not even a second generation. mean, my family has lived in the United States for a very long time, but there was a time when my, when my, ancestors were new to this country and did come to this country, as refugees, as immigrants.
We are an immigrant nation. And so in this passage saying, remember when you yourselves were aliens in the land of Egypt, there are many ways that we can be aliens in a foreign land. We may have not really had a faith before. We may not have really believed in God. We may have thought different things about God. We've certainly all had the experience of being left out, overlooked, or not counted on.
And so because we know what it's like to be left out, that can either make us want to leave others out where the abuser, the abuse becomes the abuser, or we break the cycle and say, you know what, I know what it feels like to not be valued. I don't want to be part of that. I want to value others. And this last line, I am the Lord your God is a declaration of that great I am that
I am your God, you are my people. And this is how we act in this relationship. And so when we reject that relationship and treat an immigrant or a refugee as less than, as deserving of the horrible immoral treatment that's happening, when we're separating a child from parents, we are rejecting God's authority over us. And that is really
a challenging thing, especially when some people are wanting to sort of claim their faith in a different way. But if we're gonna have integrity, then I think we have to have integrity about how we actually live our lives and to see that these are moral questions to us. They are not political or partisan in the human sense. They are about the morality of God. And that is really
Bishop DeDe (11:07.903)
what's at stake right now. We have a moral problem in the United States.
Adam Eichelberger (11:12.305)
Mm hmm. I think I'm really glad you brought up this. These these images that we see of families, children separated from their parents, that this is something that's happening a lot more and more. We were talking earlier about the numbers being reported of something in the neighborhood of about three hundred and twenty eight thousand people being detained by.
Bishop DeDe (11:21.527)
Mm-mm.
Bishop DeDe (11:26.476)
huh.
Bishop DeDe (11:32.023)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (11:39.735)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Eichelberger (11:40.754)
the government recently and in upwards of 300,000 of those then going on to be like separated or what's the word I'm looking for? Deported, excuse me. Yeah, being deported. And just even in the last several weeks, those numbers, when I talk about that, there's about 65, almost 65,000 of those are in the last several weeks. And when we see images and hear stories of
Bishop DeDe (11:52.025)
Forcibly deported, yeah.
Bishop DeDe (12:04.855)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Eichelberger (12:10.445)
immigrant families being detained and separated. What does that mean to us spiritually and practically? Because when we talk about Jesus in the scripture in Matthew 25, Jesus identifies himself with the least of these. What does it mean to us at that spiritual and practical level to say that Christ is present in those moments?
Bishop DeDe (12:25.133)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (12:32.609)
Well, mean, I think what it, I, listen, you, you have your answer to this and, each of us should, should really respond to that. It's a great question because I think what it means is we are, we are broken. We need, we need, we need the salvation that God offers us. And what I mean by salvation is it's not working. I mean, when you're talking about 60, you know, over 60,000 people displaced in the last month.
the friends, families, the people around them, the people who counted on them. You know, we're hearing about here in Syracuse, people taken from their jobs, they're at work, they're contributing to society. These are law-abiding citizens are at work and they're being taken from work and shipped off. And so now a hospital is without employees or another company doesn't have their employees who were part of their team.
These are harsh and hard realities and they're human realities. And so I think what we see in that is that we're spiritually suffering. We are ill spiritually. And the salvation that Jesus offers us is to change our mind, to literally repent, what repent means, to turn back to the ways of God. We do want people to treat one another with respect. If someone is breaking the law,
we do set boundaries for that. But when you're talking about separating children from their parents, or you're talking about law abiding citizens being shot in the streets, many people have reacted very appropriately to the horror of Renee Goode or Paredi being shot, those are awful images. And I would say to not lose sight of the fact that in this country, people who are black or brown,
people who have been harmed because of being under the suspicion of being a stranger or a foreigner. You don't belong here. You're not one of us. Our country needs to be healed of these moral, spiritual ills. We are not, when those things are happening, we're not in alignment with who we proclaim God to be.
Adam Eichelberger (14:52.962)
I 100 % agree. the common of the last things that was on my mind when you brought up first, John, it's, it's very challenging to hear that I can't claim to love God when I fail to love my neighbor. I don't get the, I don't get the right to do that. So for us, of us who are Christians who kind of feel this tension, we feel torn between,
Bishop DeDe (15:01.793)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (15:11.425)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Eichelberger (15:21.49)
I hate to even use the term like political loyalty or we feel this or yeah, or we feel this fear or these concerns around security along with the call to love immigrants who are those least of these that Jesus talked about in Matthew 25. How do we hold to our faith or how do we hold our faith with integrity in this moment?
Bishop DeDe (15:24.791)
Mm-hmm. Artisanship.
Bishop DeDe (15:47.779)
Great question. And listener, I encourage you to talk with people you trust and love about that. How do we hold that tension and how do we talk about what it means to be people of faith who also want a just and safe society? We need safety. We want safety. This is not leading to safety. These actions that are happening are not making our streets safer. They're not making us safer in their homes.
They're not helping anyone to have a better life. They're not creating jobs. There's no, or food or sustainability. They're not addressing climate change. We want safety and the ability to live our lives with authenticity and integrity. And so to affirm and to work for those things that actually do contribute to that. When there are people who are harming others,
That is part of our spiritual responsibility is to say, these are our neighbors and to stand up for our neighbors and to advocate for justice and peace. You know, we're here as people of the United States, we're talking about specifically right now, the United States of America. I am a proud American because I really believe in the constitution and the bill of rights. I believe in these underpinnings of our society.
And so when we adhere to our moral principles, then we're better. And so in this moment, we're not. Fear has overtaken emotionality, a lack of sort of judgment. We're not thinking clearly about what it means to be a moral and safe nation. And so as people of faith, when we're speaking words, when we're at the water cooler or talking
with our neighbor or with family members, how we are is how we are. And so if we're talking about them with disdain and judgment and harshness, then we've stepped away from what we believe to be most true. And when we repent of that and say, you know, I may have let fear run away with me. I may be letting fear corrupt what I believe. So I want to return to the ways of God and remember that
Bishop DeDe (18:09.495)
that God is calling us to be about something that is challenging and hard and something that actually requires that we do repent. To believe in Jesus means we have to change our minds. It means that we don't have all the options to act that we might want. We don't get to hate people or harm people or approve of people who hate or harm people. When we submit ourselves to the love of Jesus,
It means that then we become part of that narrative. And that may mean that we seek to understand before we take a position. And so for all of us in this time, the pressure of this moment is really hard. So I wanna return again to where I started with the courage to speak about our faith and say, know, my faith compels me. My faith commands me. It's interesting to think that Jesus commands us to love our neighbor.
as ourself. It's not an option like, if you get around to it, Jesus commands us to care for one another. And so my faith compels me, commands me that I need to look at the things that I'm approving of, the things I'm advocating for, and the ways in which I'm encouraging the people around me to talk about these things.
Adam Eichelberger (19:31.046)
Well, it's it. He even says it is the entirety of the law when he says love your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. If we're go on, yep, on these two commandments, all of the law rests, you know, it is it's vital and it's not an option. You know, when I hear that, when I look at scripture, when I hear what Jesus is saying to me into that, in that he's not giving me an option. He's saying
Bishop DeDe (19:37.175)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (19:42.911)
On these two commandments.
Bishop DeDe (19:48.322)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (19:54.273)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (20:00.546)
Hmm.
Adam Eichelberger (20:00.839)
that, like you said, it's a command. What is something that we can do when it comes to how scripture informs where we stand on these incredibly important issues? And let's just take a step back and say, for those who see what's happening and see that there's a problem, like you've said, nobody is advocating for lawlessness. Nobody is advocating for
Bishop DeDe (20:27.811)
Mm-mm.
Adam Eichelberger (20:30.008)
more crime. It is simply saying that if we are going to be a country of, as so many like to say, law and order, we need to lean into the order part of it. And part of that is seeing that people, regardless of where they come from, regardless if they look like us or not, regardless of how, if we agree with how they came here or not, are deserving of love and mercy.
Bishop DeDe (20:31.712)
No.
Bishop DeDe (20:44.748)
Mm-hmm.
Bishop DeDe (20:50.519)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Eichelberger (20:59.374)
and grace. What are how do we do this in the context of scripture? Because I think what I what what I'm hearing for me is like, it's really important for me to turn to the Bible, like we've talked about on the show, and read it and see what it's saying to me, listen to the movement of the Holy Spirit in me. But it also kind of feels like maybe we need to start doing some stuff in our own communities around scripture. So what does that look like? Does it look like, hey,
Bishop DeDe (21:17.251)
and
Bishop DeDe (21:26.624)
One more.
Adam Eichelberger (21:29.436)
We're gonna gather up some folks from my church community, maybe even from my workspace, whatever, and we're gonna take a look at some of these issues through the lens of scripture. Is that kind of the direction that's gonna help maybe turn the tide in this a little bit? I'm wondering what you think about that, Bishop.
Bishop DeDe (21:46.647)
Well, I, I, course, as I'm going to suggest people to be reading scripture and talking about it, listener, may have other options or other things you're thinking. I think we need people of faith to remember that their faith isn't about God agreeing with them. So often people like, well, I like thinking this. Well, that's great. What does scripture say? What does God say? What are the foundations of our faith? What is our catechesis? Because we actually have a formed faith.
there's structure to it. And with scripture, when we read scripture, to return to that and say, you know, don't, often people will say to I don't really know what the Bible says about this. Well, good news, it's printed in a lot of languages, maybe not enough of them, but we have a lot of languages and we can read about it. We can have Bible studies together. There's really wonderful books written about it that help us get into learning more about what the Bible says.
But I think there isn't anything that can really replace just opening a Bible and looking for reading the story, reading the gospels, reading what Jesus, know, life is about, starting obviously with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It used to be people would say, you know, start with the book of John and then read Luke, whatever works for you. But I think first and foremost is to learn about our faith.
You know, a lot of folks kind of have a passing understanding of what they think, but they've never really investigated it or spent a lot of time. And then once we've read scripture and to not forget that the spirit to be praying about understanding, because at first when we read scripture, it's a little bit inscrutable. It seems kind of like a foreign language because one, it was written in a foreign language, but two, kind of need to open our hearts to.
to what God may be saying to us that may be different than we expect. And so to learn about scripture, to pray when we're reading scripture, and then to have good dialogue with other friends, to invite people along for the journey. I think this is a really important time in our lives to really, to have Bible studies, to be reading scriptures to one another and having dialogue.
Bishop DeDe (24:10.647)
to be looking at what does it really say? Little plug for learning communities in our diocese of central New York, we're gonna be, you what does that Bible say about homosexuality, about some of the passages that have been used down through the centuries and misused and misappropriated. News flash, the Bible doesn't actually say a whole lot about homosexuality, which always shocks people. People are like, no, it says a bunch. It really doesn't.
It says a whole lot about lying. says a lot about how we treat one another. It says a lot about greed and avarice. It says a lot about how we care for one another. And so first and foremost is having Bible study, learning, and then having dialogue with, what does this mean then? Because the Bible has said this, what do I feel is the right next step? How might I change what I'm doing?
that might heal me or might help me to be part of a healing of our families, of our nations, or our communities. When we act with integrity, it encourages people to act with integrity. And so part of speaking of faith is growing in our understanding, deepening our understanding so that then we can have a better understanding of what is true and right and good.
Bishop DeDe (25:35.895)
Well, friends, this has been a little bit heavy duty podcast because we're talking about scripture reading. I encourage you to talk with a friend. I pass the baton to you. We've talked about Leviticus 19, 33 through 34 and Matthew 25, just all of Matthew 25, just pick them anywhere. And then John four, first John four, excuse me. I encourage you to read those passages in your own Bible and the own.
in your own time and then invite someone to have conversation with you. And my prayer for all of us is that when we speak of our faith, we'll grow in our understanding of what God is calling us to be about and that we together will be part of healing our world and our communities. So may you be blessed and be a blessing. I look forward to speaking with you soon and take good care.
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