Speaking Of Discernment

Summary:

In this episode of Speaking of Faith, Bishop DeDe and Adam open up about the messy, beautiful work of discerning God’s call. They talk about why discernment is less about having all the answers and more about living the questions—with prayer, patience, and community. From wrestling with self-doubt to finding hope in uncertainty, this conversation reminds us that every person has a calling, and we discover it best when we walk the journey together.

Highlights:

• Why discernment is a journey, not a destination
• The role of community in testing and shaping our callings
• How to face confusion, doubt, and even being wrong
• Why talking honestly about faith matters now more than ever
• The gift of hope that comes from yielding to God’s will

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Faith Conversations

01:21 Understanding Discernment

03:41 The Nature of God's Call

09:59 Community and Discernment

14:02 The Role of Discernment in Daily Life

19:31 Navigating Uncertainty in Discernment

28:07 Maintaining Faith Through Challenges

AI Disclosure: To support our staff in their limited time, many of our episode summaries are first generated by AI and then edited by the Communications Director to accurately reflect and preview our podcast episodes.

Transcript

Bishop DeDe (00:02.276)
Hey friends, welcome to the podcast Speaking of Faith. Speaking of faith, how's your faith? This podcast is all about our ability to share and talk about what matters most to us, those things we placed our faith in, the part of our life that is centered around what we believe to be most true about our life and our world. It seems to be the case that

We have lost the ability to talk about our faith. And often when people talk about faith, it's in derision or dehumanization or challenging someone else or very personal and confronting. What we're talking about here is how we speak words of hope and encouragement, truth, how we confront truth, but also in our own lives, how we draw closer to God. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I am the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York.

I'm joined by Adam Eichelberger, who is our Director of Communications. And I invite you to this podcast not to be schooled on how to talk, but for all of us to practice together, to have a conversation together about how we speak. You're always encouraged and urged to contact us, to send in your questions and comments, for this to be a full dialogue to let us know what's on your heart or mind.

In what way is speaking your faith difficult or challenging, helpful, encouraging? You're welcome to the, so welcome to the conversation. Today we're gonna talk about discernment. And specifically, I want to be clear, today we're talking about discerning God's call in our lives. The last podcast we talked about calling, this podcast we're talking about, so what do we do about that? How do we discern?

our sense of call that we've received. It's often helpful to stop and realize that all of us have a calling. It may not be to the ordained priesthood, it may not be. It may be to be a better neighbor or it may be to be more clear about our boundaries. But all of us are called to seek and serve Christ in all persons. All of us are called to speak words of faith and hope and to show up for people.

Bishop DeDe (02:25.398)
and ways that are helpful. The verse that we're going to kind of use as our baseline today doesn't use the word discipleship, but I think is very much about what discipleship is about. So 2 Timothy 1 chapter 1 verse 7, for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

Now you may be wondering what does that have to do with the sermons? Well, the sermon and discerning God's call is about us looking at how we feel nudged, encouraged, sort of empowered. How do we live our lives? And it may be that we are hesitant to do so. And so God has not given us a spirit of cowardice that to be timid and think, God couldn't have called me to do that. That's too great. I don't know enough. I'm not.

smart enough, strong enough, tall enough, fast enough, all of the things that we tend to focus on. But rather, God has called us to something, and if we feel a motivation toward it, to allow ourselves to investigate that. Doesn't mean often we make the mistake of thinking that if we look at discernment, if we start to discern a call, that it's a commitment that we can't get out of. But discernment is like walking a path with God where there may be turns,

There may be avenues that open up, there may be paths that we need to follow, and it may be securitas, and it may lead us right back to where we began, but all along that journey, God is showing up. God is guiding us. So discernment is to recognize God. God is not calling us to be hateful. God is not calling us to be dehumanizing. God is calling us

to know our power as God's people and to be part of a loving restorative presence in the world. And a calling from God does involve self-discipline. We're not called to just have it the way we want it. One of the confusions often for new deacons or clergy is to realize that a call to ministry means it's not really about us. It's not about our feelings necessarily.

Bishop DeDe (04:50.476)
It's about the gospel of Jesus Christ and about us being drawn into it, but not always about getting our own way. So when we're discerning a call, one of the first things that's helpful is to reach out to someone in our community and to recognize that a call is communal. If you think of the kingdom of God or kingdom of God as a tapestry, each of us is a thread or a fiber or an element of that tapestry.

And for the tapestry to be whole, means we play the part we're called to play. We fill the space we're called to fill. And so we look for our skills, our talents, our natural inclinations, but also to our community to say, you know, I've really been feeling a call to lead a Bible study. What do you think about that? And the person we talk to may refer and say,

that's a great idea, can really so see you doing that. A person may also say, I don't think you know enough to do that. And when someone questions our validity, that's a red flag to stop and say, well, either they may be right, maybe I don't know enough, but I can learn things and I'm capable of learning, but maybe this is not the person I should talk to about a calling. So we go to another person.

And we say, I've been feeling a call to do this. And we ask them to pray for us. And when someone says, I don't know if that's a good idea, say, well, would you pray with me about this? Because this urge, this nudging is just not going away. And since it's not going away, I want to listen to God and be attentive to what God may be calling me to do. So I'm going to pray about it. So we go to, we seek community. We pray, we read scripture.

And we look at other people who had callings, whether it's, you know, Moses or Mary Magdalene or Peter or Paul or James or John. We look at other people who've gone before who've had callings and we listen to how our calling may line up with them. think Jonah is actually one of the best. Often we tend to fall into the Moses or Jonah category. Some of us receive a calling and our first instinct is to run away.

Bishop DeDe (07:11.83)
And no, no, no, I can't do that. I'm not going there. Those people would never listen to me. I'm not doing it. But then it just doesn't go away and it keeps nagging at us. And then something draws us back. And so we can't escape it. And we go back and we say, all right, Lord, if you're calling me, here I am. Send me as the prophets of old would tell us, as the Hebrew scriptures would say, here I am. I'm willing to follow you. I don't understand it.

but I'm gonna trust that you're gonna guide my way. And then to have an open heart. Another thing that as a bishop, I see people falling into a trap is thinking that, well, I feel called to serve God and serve other people. So I'm called to ordain ministry and I won't take no for an answer. And the problem with that is that we're coming to this in faith.

And we don't always know our calling. would be great if there was a sign poster. God wrote it in the sky and said, hey, turn left at the next stoplight. That would be awesome. But callings are a little bit confusing, destabilizing, fearful, fear inducing, certainly. And so to walk through discernment is to be open to being wrong and open to taking a left when we want to go right, is open to

something else coming out of that discernment other than what we think it's going to be about. We like to kind of, you know, foreshadow things and say, this must be this calling. I must be called to do that. But as we go through the discernment and allow it to move with us and allow ourselves to be open to it, we discover, no, what's actually life-giving is something different. I think we can know a calling, and this is my opinion, not someone else's.

I think we can know a calling when it's life giving to us, when it draws us closer to God, and when it inspires the people around us, and especially those we love, that it resonates as truth for our life. And of course, I can hear you, some of you, I have to put a caution, sometimes our calling is destabilizing to those we're closest to. They've always seen us a certain way.

Bishop DeDe (09:35.362)
A prophet is not always accepted in their own hometown. Jesus even tells us this. Sometimes our hometown crowd is the hardest one to minister with because they knew us when and they still see it's like we're 12. And so sometimes it's hard. We need people who have fresh eyes and honest opinions and people who will say to us, you know, I understand you feel drawn to that, but you're not really suited for that call.

but I do see you as suited for this call, to seek the wise counsel of a spiritual director, pastor, priest, a dear friend, someone who's mature in their faith, who can help us to hear the Spirit of God clearly, so that we don't get caught up in either assuming what it means, trying to force our way through it, or trying to just.

shy away from something and convince ourselves that can't be my calling. I'm not gonna do that. God's call is an invitation to you and to me to be about the gospel of Jesus Christ. And whether we serve as a lay person, as a deacon, as a priest, or as a bishop, the call is to the same work, to embody the love of Jesus to this hurting world, to build up and offer hope and to show up.

and with a cup of cold water, whatever that may be, for the people around us and live our lives for Jesus. Some of the greatest ministers I've ever met are people who are active in their profession, but come to their profession with an active understanding of their faith and are present in their profession as a person of God, not overstepping

not forcing their way into something, but as a servant heart, offering the love of Jesus to a hurting world. Discernment is prayer. Discernment is community. And discernment is understanding what God's call is for us, which may be very different from our own self-understanding. And then finally, I wanna, in my little bit here,

Bishop DeDe (11:55.172)
to talk about how do you know when to let go of a calling and when to hold on to a discernment. A wise person said to me one time, a mentor of mine, if you're sitting on an ice block and you're freezing to death and see no hope or life, get off. If you're sitting on an ice block and you're freezing, but you see hope and you see transformation and you're living by faith, stay on it.

So for all of us, as we're discerning, there are moments where we need to let go of a discernment and say, you know, that is a path I choose not to go down, that God's not calling me to. And to be open to being totally wrong. And I can end with a story of my own life and my own faith that I've shared with the diocese many times. When I was, my name was put forward for this call as Bishop of Central New York, I thought it was

just ludicrous. I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm not called to do that. I'm not called to be a bishop. And my spiritual director said, why? And I said, well, I don't know anyone in central New York and they wouldn't want me to be their bishop. And so this is, why would I do this? And my spiritual director said, well, pray about it. And when I prayed about it and when I read the profile, something in my heart sparked. It was like I could hear it.

I could see it. could see the ministry and it excited me. It was like, wouldn't that be a privilege to get to go do that? but this is not gonna happen. So even all the way up into the discernment weekend and through that, and then when we had what's called the visitation, the walkabout, there's many terms for this event, but you go around the dais and you have town hall meetings. It wasn't until that moment at a town hall meeting

that I suddenly let go of my hesitancy and my fear and all the reasons I had that this just couldn't be my calling. And I said, you know Lord, if this is what you're calling me to do, then I will do that. We cannot forget that with God there is a moment where we may feel very much that we don't wanna do it like Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. But if we'll hold on another minute.

Bishop DeDe (14:20.46)
If we'll lean into our understanding of community, if we'll pray and seek God, that door will open and we'll understand our calling. So I've said a lot. This is a big subject for one podcast. We may have to come back to bits of this, but Adam, you know, as we're talking about this very large, complex, multivalent subject, what is alive for you and what are some of the questions that we may want to ask about this subject?

Adam Eichelberger (14:49.432)
So for me, Bishop, like one of the first things that comes to mind is how important a role discernment plays in our lives as people of faith. And I know that it kind of feels like I'm restating the premise of our episode, but this is something that is so integral to our spiritual life that it also becomes very important in the other aspects of our lives. And as people who...

Bishop DeDe (15:01.057)
Absolutely.

Right, right.

Bishop DeDe (15:15.513)
That's right.

Adam Eichelberger (15:17.774)
consider ourselves Christians, I was always of the mindset that my identity as a Christian is not separate from the rest of my life. These things inform one another. So as I discern things like my, my whole thought process and prayer process around getting married and our whole thought process and prayer process about starting a family together, all these things are discernment, but it also spills into things like the careers that we choose.

Bishop DeDe (15:27.33)
Exactly.

Bishop DeDe (15:36.468)
huh.

Bishop DeDe (15:41.967)
Right.

Adam Eichelberger (15:46.515)
and the directions, those things. All of those things are things that we should invite God into. All those things are places where there should be room for the Holy Spirit. The first thing that kind of can, and this is kind of like a very high ideal thought, I guess, more of a thought experiment, but I'm gonna ask you this, Bishop, because I'm curious as to what you think, because I've got some thoughts, and maybe listener, this will ring true with you, or something you can kind of meditate on when it comes to discernment.

Bishop DeDe (15:55.575)
Absolutely.

Adam Eichelberger (16:14.188)
If you think about the sermon like it's a weather pattern, what would it be for you? Is it clear skies? Is it like a foggy morning? Is it thunderstorms? What does that, like if we think about that metaphor, what does that sound like for you?

Bishop DeDe (16:28.826)
That's a very interesting metaphor because I would say that it's not ever one thing. Sometimes it's fog and like a really thick, you know, English fog where you can hardly take the next step because you just can't see what is God up to and what do I do here? This is a hard place. And sometimes discernment is very difficult because we, as you say, there's so much in life we discern how we are going to create and live and co-create our life with God.

Adam Eichelberger (16:43.766)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (16:58.916)
So when there's illness or when there's challenges, it can be so hard to discern and feel like we're not even making progress. And so we hold that before God and let that go. Sometimes I think it is like a torrential rainstorm and lightning and it's terrifying and it seems very perilous. And to stay attuned to God is with us, God is calling us, God is not forgotten about us. And even when we feel God has forgotten about us, to trust that

the next day that resurrection is an ongoing reality with God. And in some days, it's just the easiest thing in the world for a discernment. You're walking along, a friend calls. It's kind of seems like happenstance. Hey, do want to come over? You go over, there's a person there. And it just falls into place. A moment where there's an opportunity to build a relationship, to forgive one another, to make a decision. It's just.

So simple. And you think, why was this so easy? And that other thing was like, you know, thunderstorms and lightning. And there are different reasons for that. It's just every discernment is its own journey, which is one reason too, that I think people should be attentive to trying to only discern one, maybe two things at a time. If you're trying to discern whether or not to get married and to be a priest, I counsel people pick one.

Make that discernment, and then there's always time for the next one. God is not worried about you having all the time to fulfill God's call. You have the time, you have the resources. You may not see them, it may not feel like it, but to trust God with that. And so whether it's sunny skies or stormy, God is with you. We're gonna take the next step, and we're gonna find God's redemptive grace, meet us in that moment.

Adam Eichelberger (18:56.887)
yeah. And just hearing you kind of talk about that and share with us about that for us to kind of consider, this is going to sound weird, but as you have made several music references in this podcast, I'm going to make my own. It reminded me, there's a song by, outcast called Ms. Jackson and the line that stands out for me. when I think about that song and this discernment, which you think how do these things mesh is there's a line, that is, can, you can plan a pretty picnic.

Bishop DeDe (19:12.279)
Uh-huh.

Adam Eichelberger (19:25.839)
but you can't predict the weather. And it is so prescient for me to remember that when I am discerning things, when I'm taking these things to God, when I'm involving the Holy Spirit in these big decisions, I have no control. I'm not in control of these things. I have a role in it. It's like you said, we are called to be co-creators with God, but I have to let God move in these things and respond accordingly.

Bishop DeDe (19:27.481)
Right.

Bishop DeDe (19:44.004)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (19:52.506)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (19:54.413)
So I can't really make my own plans in this. have thoughts and ideas, but I can't be the one navigating the ship. You know what I mean? If that makes sense.

Bishop DeDe (20:03.206)
yeah, because you never know. God has infinite ability to surprise us. The thing we thought was impossible isn't. The thing we thought was improbable isn't improbable, but actually is probable. God is the power of the universe. And so to allow that to inform us and to remind ourselves, like something that you're kind of intimating, we're not the center of the universe. We don't have all power. And so we may be convinced.

that we are called to A. But as long as we are closing our mind to all that God's doing around us, we may never realize the real call of God in our lives. And so to be adaptable, to be open, to stand firm when we need to stand firm, but like this passage, to not that we have a spirit of power and of love, that we're coming to this with an ability to

offer our desire to serve God, to God, and allow God to work in us. It's always God's work in us. And I think we fool ourselves sometimes thinking, oh, I know just what my call is. Well, I don't even think when we think we know what our call is, our call is. I mean, I find all the time people will contact me and say, oh, when you did X, it really meant so much in my life. And I think, what did I do? That was not.

What did you think about the big project we did in the diocese? know, and we'll spend a lot of our time sometimes in the diocese doing these big programs or projects. And then somebody's like, I just love the font on the messenger. It's just great. You know, and it, and you think what, you know, but, but, but, and yet that's God at work. And so we, I think it's helpful to be embrace being wrong, to embrace that we are not God.

and to embrace that whatever God calls us to is gonna be the right thing and to trust that it's okay. Catherine Hepburn once said, somebody asked her if she could say something to her younger self, what would she say? And she said, I would say, just relax, it's all gonna happen and it's gonna be okay. And I think my music reference is you too. You've gotten stuck in a moment. And to allow ourselves to see past the moment.

Bishop DeDe (22:27.852)
and see the eternal grace of God that greets

Adam Eichelberger (22:32.739)
That's really good. And so the next thing that I was kind of thinking of, and you, hinted to this a little bit in our episode when we talked about our calling and you even kind of started the conversation around this earlier in this episode. But I think would be really helpful for me and listener, maybe if you're like me, as we are getting to a point where we're going to start talking about the thing, cause we have, we've heard this call and we think that there's this thing inside of us that we have to start this discernment process on.

Bishop DeDe (22:40.59)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (22:54.362)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (23:02.627)
And now we got to talk about it with some folks. We got to start having a discussion about it.

Bishop DeDe (23:04.089)
Mm-hmm.

Hence the reason it's good for this podcast. Yes, that's right.

Adam Eichelberger (23:08.723)
Exactly. When you're trying to discern this calling, how can you tell that? How can we tell the difference between God's voice and our own desires or fears? Because I think that like it's kind of becoming very meta. It's a little bit of a meta question because now it's like a Russian nesting doll. It's like one inside of the other. So we're discerning the call. But then how do we actually within that discernment?

Bishop DeDe (23:31.098)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (23:37.677)
discern the voice of God in there and discern what is us kind of imparting our own, like I said, desires or fears into the process. So how do we start thinking about that stuff and then talking about it with somebody?

Bishop DeDe (23:50.304)
it's great, I mean, that's a foundational question and listener, you may have a much better answer to that question than what I'm gonna give. So think about that. How do you tell? I mean, first, I think we have to push on it a little bit. We have to test it out and not like jumping off a building testing out. I'm talking about, we have to have the courage to speak to someone about it and then ask for their prayers.

discerning a call to teach a Bible study, for instance, then maybe we talk with our pastor or our leader and then we invite four or five people and say, hey, would you like to have a Bible study with me? And if people are like, you know, no, I don't wanna do that. Okay, well then maybe it's a different kind of a thing I'm looking for. Or if everybody's like, yeah, that would be great. Okay, I was really feeling drawn to lead a Bible study about

the gospel of John, does that sound interesting to you? And pretty, and then if that starts to, and then you sort of follow that through. Always with community and looking at, you know, someone to help you lead, checking and making sure that what you're teaching, if you do happen to be called to something like that, that you're teaching good things and that you're not getting kind of off and, you know, opinions and things, but really sticking with the gospel.

But you have to kind of try it out a little bit and sort of walk the journey. You know, we talked last week with a call that if you get up in the morning and you, all you can think about is singing them, you're a singer. The same is true with another calling. If you're feeling called to write something, then start writing something and see kind of how it goes and share it with people. If you feel called to get involved with a certain type of ministry,

Look for where people are doing that ministry and go and join in and, and join in with humility. Like I want to learn about feeding the homeless. I really feel called to being part of making a difference for people who are powerless. Join in with people who are already doing the work. The temptation to want to, you know, solo me, take over and do it as an independent operator is not a call from God. We're always called a community. So.

Bishop DeDe (26:12.76)
I think the only way to know is to sort of walk around the park a little bit, to use that metaphor, and to recognize that God will show up. Sometimes our calling is because we just want it that way. And when that happens, when we realize, I've been wanting to do this because I'm wanting to be right about something, then we repent of that. We change our mind and say, you know what? I'm gonna set that down. This isn't about me.

getting power, prestige, this isn't about me getting my way. This is really a call to be God's person and offering that to God. And so it takes, that's part of discernment too, is trying it on and seeing what it, seeing how it feels to you and to the people around you.

Adam Eichelberger (27:00.759)
absolutely. And one of the things that just kind of came to my mind in that bishop when I was hearing you talk about that is you you you've used the example of like, I want to lead a Bible study, because you've talked about like, it doesn't necessarily our discernment process isn't necessarily like we're going to be a bishop of a diocese, we I feel I'm hearing I'm hearing this call in me, I feel like I have something to offer. I feel like I can step into this role, I want to lead a Bible study and you go like, let's say it's me and I go to my parish and I talked to my priest and

Bishop DeDe (27:10.01)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (27:16.234)
no.

Adam Eichelberger (27:30.243)
He's all on board. I put it out there to folks and I put it out there to folks and maybe nobody really accepts because it's really easy. Some people in some contexts sitting down at coffee shop at the parish at your home, five or six folks diving into a scripture, doing something kind of Lectio Divina that works for some folks. And sometimes you may find yourself in a position where it doesn't work. My thought is using my kind of like elder millennial brain is like, okay, well maybe

Bishop DeDe (27:31.47)
Right.

Bishop DeDe (27:43.706)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (27:59.928)
I am called to do this. So I'm going to go to my priest and we say like, Hey, I talked about this. didn't quite stick. What if you could help me and like, use the tools that I have at my disposal. So I have like a, doesn't necessarily have to be like a huge social media presence, but like, Hey, what if I hopped on my Instagram live and I did five, 10 minutes just talking about reading the scripture and how it applies to my life and

Bishop DeDe (28:04.26)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (28:27.128)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (28:27.289)
seeing if anyone shows up, know, kind of taking this DIY millennial attitude towards this ministry. And it could work great. But again, there's a catch because you kind of really well highlighted like, okay, am I putting myself on an island? Like am I separating myself out from the community? So I think that that draws to mind for me that finding trusted people to help guide me through the process and shepherd me through the process is important.

And that brings to mind kind of my last question for our episode today, Bishop, is this. When it comes to discerning the call, how do we remain faithful and hopeful when the discernment process leads us to kind of like an unexpected or difficult path? I think that you doing the work that you do and you in your career in ministry can speak to this pretty uniquely. So what do we do?

when we're kind of running out, we're running low on faith and hope and we're feeling kind of like this whole thing is difficult and it's kind of getting away from you. Like what, how, how do we navigate through that in the discernment process?

Bishop DeDe (29:38.242)
Well, that is an entire episode that we should put down and do that in the fall. The answer that I'll give in the short time and we're getting near the end of our time today is we go back to the basis of our faith. We remember who God is and we retrace and we look back at the journey we've traveled and remind ourselves that God is not going to leave us abandoned.

with Jesus, Jesus' passion is a horrific, awful moment in terms of the suffering and all, and then there's resurrection. That always God is bringing resurrection. And so if we miss it in one place, there's gonna be resurrection alongside of it. And so I think it is the way we recover our faith is the same way we nurture our faith.

We continue to worship and read scripture and pray. We continue to reach out to friends and colleagues along the way and to nurture that we are part of what God is doing. And the call of a Christian is never to be right. It is not to power and prestige. It is not to ownership. But the calling of a Christian is to yielding ourselves to what God is doing with us.

And so the way we recover is to be reminded of what God is doing with us and to do those things that bring us joy. Maybe we take a break for a minute and spend some time in nature. Maybe we go out and do something that's totally different and inspires us in new ways, art and all the different ways we pray. But I think the way we the way we do anything is is always always to return to Jesus and remember.

God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of love and of power and self-discipline and to yield to what God is doing in our lives and to know that God is good and loves us and will lead us in ways that edify us and others. So dear friends, is a podcast that all of us come away from it thinking, my goodness, what does discernment mean in our lives? What are you trying to discern?

Bishop DeDe (32:02.402)
And how might you reach out in community? What might you invite people to pray for you about? Who might be a good person to speak with about this? How might you test it out a little bit, see how it is, and what are the fears that are holding you back from discerning God's call from your life? I now hand the baton to you. It's your turn. Go and talk and speak your faith, and may God bless your journey of ongoing discernment, and may you be a blessing.

and we'll speak soon. Take good care.