What Even Is Love?

Summary

This episode of Speaking Of Faith, Bishop DeDe and Adam explore the multifaceted nature of love, especially how it relates to faith and relationships. They dive into the biblical perspective of love we find in 1 Corinthians 13, discussing its characteristics and the challenges of embodying true love in everyday life. The conversation emphasizes the importance of love as an action verb, the role of prayer in cultivating love, and the necessity of forgiveness in relationships. Ultimately, they invite listeners to reflect on their understanding of love and its implications in their lives.

Takeaways

• Love is often confused with desire or other emotions.
• 1 Corinthians 13 provides a profound overview of love.
• True love is challenging and requires effort.
• Love should be unconditional and not based on recompense.
• We often masquerade selfishness as love.
• Prayer can help us align with God's love.
• Forgiveness is essential in loving relationships.
• Love is a lifelong journey of growth.
• We must set boundaries while still offering love.
• Understanding love requires humility and self-reflection.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Love and Faith

02:38 Exploring 1 Corinthians 13

05:24 The Challenge of True Love

08:26 Love as an Action Verb

10:57 The Complexity of Love in Relationships

13:38 The Role of Prayer in Loving Others

16:39 Forgiveness and Letting Go of Grudges

AI Disclosure: To support our staff in their limited time, many of our episode summaries are first generated by AI and then edited by the Communications Director to accurately reflect and preview our podcast episodes.

Transcript

Bishop DeDe (00:02.935)
Hey friends, welcome to the podcast, Speaking of Faith, a podcast about talking about things that are important to us. This is not a podcast to answer all the questions or tick all the boxes. This is an invitation to you and to us to talk about things that matter most to us, our faith. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I'm the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York.

I'm joined today by Adam Eichelberger. He is our director of communications in the diocese. And we are here to talk about a topic that seems like we already know about it. We're to talk about love today. And the thing about talking about love is how impossible it is really. We're going to talk about something we have no words for, or our words are insufficient. We're going to talk about something that has been appropriated and changed.

We're going to talk about something that is so confusing at times. It's hard to really parse out what it is. Often we confuse love with desire or we confuse love with a kind of a lot of different things. And of course, then there are different ways we love things. Used to be they would talk about different types of love. Some cultures have different, even different words for love. And so in this short podcast,

we're going to begin by talking about how love relates to our faith and how our faith and in our faith we talk about love. So of course if you know anything about scripture and if you don't and if you're new to this welcome to the conversation but in the Bible in the first Corinthians chapter 13 is called the love chapter by many people there's lots of passages in scripture about love what makes

1 Corinthians 13 unique in my opinion is that it really gives an overview of what it is. More than saying you should do this, 1 Corinthians kind of says, well, what is it we're saying we're going to do? So let's get into it. So 1 Corinthians 13 starts off this way. If I speak in the tongues of human and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Bishop DeDe (02:23.765)
And if I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and knowledge, and if I have all faiths so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I am nothing. Love is patient, love is kind.

Love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way. It is not irritable. It keeps no record of wrongs. It does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things. Love never ends. Wow.

Reading that list right away, there's a clear demarcation between what we often talk about as love and what this passage is talking about. Right from the top, that patient and kind, not envious or boastful or arrogant. What a thing to aspire to, to be that way in our life. And so when we're talking about love in our life and when we're speaking about love and when we say we want to love our neighbor.

It becomes very clear very quickly that we're talking about something that's really hard for us, really almost impossible for us. When we love our neighbor, generally speaking, is because we want something. We want them to be nice. We want them to think that we're nice. We love them so that we can tell people we've done the right thing. We want to be successful. We love our neighbor because it has been fit for us in the long run.

But to love our neighbor without recompense, to love our neighbor because we are invested in being about what God has done in our lives. And because when we love another person, we see God. And yes, that is something that's for ourselves. But that is such a different topic than what we normally talk about when we speak about love. We tend to be, I think a little bit handicapped by Hallmark cards.

Bishop DeDe (04:50.883)
You know, bless Hallmark. It's been great for many relationships, sending cards, especially the apology ones. But I think when we talk about love, we need to be clear that it is not as maybe, you know, Coleridge would say a fancier feeling. It's love is an action verb. Love is an intention. Love is a way of being in the world that is distinctly different from this world.

When you're talking about love is kind and not envious or arrogant or rude and does not insist on its own way, well, that is distinctly different from anything we're hearing on the news or seeing in the world, this world that wants to compete or have power over people or dehumanize people, to tear people down. It's a very different thing. And so to attune our ears to a new understanding of this word love.

to attune our ears to how love in our lives might call us and propel us to do different things is a work of true piety and really it is something that transforms us. When is the last time any of us helped someone else, our children, our loved ones, solely because we want the best for them?

not because we're trying to quiet them so that they wouldn't annoy us or so we can win an argument, clearly because we care about the person and the being of the person. That is such a gift. And if you've ever had, like many of us, a time when there was conflict with a loved one, where the relationship was strained and there had been really a lot of damage.

When there has been healing and when forgiveness comes and when there's really been amendment of life, the joy and the feeling of hope and life that can come in is so profound. And so also, let me leave out this part, but that love rejoices in the truth. How much of our life are we trying to avoid truth? We don't really want to say the thing that might be hurt. We don't want to say what it is we really want. We try to...

Bishop DeDe (07:08.971)
maybe manipulate or obfuscate or do all of these things. But to be in a relationship with someone who lovingly speaks truth to us, not like a wedge or a hammer, but with invitation is so, can be so profound in life giving and restorative to love as we want to be loved to offer to the world what we hope will be what the world gives back to us.

Each of us has profound power that we always overlook. Wherever you are and wherever I am, whenever we walk into a space to think about what would it look like not to be arrogant or rude? What would it be like in this situation to offer compassion and mercy? How would that shift what's happening in the world? And then we're going to run right into our prejudice.

Cause we have a bias about love. We even have sayings about love. Whoever loves most is the weakest. Whoever loves is, is, you know, defenseless, the vulnerability and how bad vulnerability is. And, you know, I won't get into Brene Brown right now, but definitely, she's worth reading. good read. But we look at love as something that is weak. That if we care about other people, we're going to be taken advantage of and put down and harmed.

It is true that love is risky and we know from Jesus that loving others may mean we are harmed. But what we also know from Jesus is that when we love fully, we cannot be manipulated or used. If I offer love to someone and they take it and then try to get more, you can't out give God. And so in our own lives, when we are part of loving others,

to truly offer kindness in the face of someone who really doesn't know how to receive or reciprocate. And I would be remiss, of course, if I didn't say in this, we are not called to love people like a doormat. When someone wants to harm us or when somebody is not, if someone is rude or arrogant to us in return, to know that there are boundaries. Jesus, throughout the gospel, sets up boundaries.

Bishop DeDe (09:34.509)
When someone can't receive his love, he sets a boundary. He says to the young man, until you can do these things, you can't follow me. And the young man goes away sorrowing because he can't give up his wealth. So love is tricky. And when we talk about it, I think there's some humility required to know that we don't have mastery on it. We feel it, we love it, we love loving, we love feeling loving. But man, it's really hard.

And I think it's a hard conversation to have. So oddly, I'm gonna leave this in that very unstable place of, think this is really hard. So Adam, in talking about this, what sort of strikes you or is on your mind about this and how might we start at this space of recognizing love is so hard and isn't actually what we always think of?

Adam Eichelberger (10:29.792)
and I'm going to admit listeners and to you, Bishop, like this one's a hard one for me as somebody who fancies himself as a romantic. When I have to look at this outside of the context of like the romantic love I have for my spouse. This is a hard one for me when we have to apply love in so many different contexts. It really challenges me personally, and I think it maybe challenges all of us that

Bishop DeDe (10:38.755)
Mm-hm.

Adam Eichelberger (10:58.56)
love extends beyond our home. And so like when we talk about love, not like, like you said, not like the feel good kind of like rom com love that we so often associate with that word. But what Paul was talking about here in First Corinthians, he makes it kind of a bold statement. And he says, like you read for us, he says that without love, even if we have incredible faith or knowledge or make huge sacrifices, it still amounts to nothing. So

Bishop DeDe (11:02.487)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (11:10.435)
So.

Bishop DeDe (11:25.677)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (11:28.556)
I guess kind of like my first question when we're talking about this is how do you think that challenges the way that we measure, like if you want to call it spiritual maturity or success, especially like for those of us who are in the church, how do you think that challenges the way that we measure these things?

Bishop DeDe (11:49.959)
my goodness. It's just, I think it's such a hard conversation because it's hard not to slide into sort of, as you said, feel good, you know, romcom things or to slide into kind of shoulda, coulda, woulda, or to slide into, well, it's just harder to mystery. the way, you know, it, is a, a, a matter of maturity and formation that we have to start where we are and build up our ability to, to love.

We start with maybe compassion in, you know, as we're walking down the street and pass someone rather than thinking, gosh, they're in my way to just start small and say, I'm kind of annoyed they're in my way. And this is a human being who's living their life. And to just start with an acknowledgement of the humanity of, of others, and then to sort of build our ability up to, strengthen those muscles until we actually really care about.

what's happening for another person authentically. Often we masquerade selfishness as love when someone's having a hard time and so we wanna help them because we tell ourselves we're compassionate but what we're actually doing is controlling or manipulating or trying to fix something that kind of annoys us to see. And so to truly love someone is just to be with them, to recognize our own failing, that we're not very good at this.

And to offer it to God and to pray or to take an action where we ask someone, how can I help you with this? And if they say, I don't want your help to say, that is absolutely great. Not to feel badly about it, but to recognize that the person, what they need is his autonomy. And then to say, I will, I'm here to help. I will step back and I will be praying for you in a good way. Not I'll be praying for you because you're annoying me.

But rather, I'll be praying, you know, I'll be praying that because it matters to me how you are. It is so, we just have a hard time caring about other people. So I think the measure, I'm not sure there even is a measure. I think love is a transformation of the spirit of our lives. We start where we are and then the more that we are loved,

Adam Eichelberger (13:49.963)
You

Bishop DeDe (14:14.595)
and feel God's love, the more we receive love and then to intentionally build up our ability to offer it and to temper ourselves. We always give ourselves so many excuses, oh, I was tired. I didn't feel, you know, it was a busy day. And to say, each time I speak to another person or act.

is an opportunity to act in love. so just step by step, each of us doing that work of learning how to do it. It's a lifelong journey.

Adam Eichelberger (14:47.53)
yeah, absolutely. And just hearing you say that it kind of calls to mind for me when I look back at the words of Jesus in the gospels, this is one of those times. And I, we've talked about it on this podcast before that sometimes Paul and Jesus have this very kind of tricky relationship with one another. Cause sometimes Paul really, kind of says things that create friction between the message to Jesus. But in this, they're promoting the same thing. Jesus never gives us like an order or a command to save anybody.

Bishop DeDe (15:17.621)
No.

Adam Eichelberger (15:17.634)
He gives us a commandment to love people. And Paul is really saying this. And just for me, it's a huge reminder to kind of take that burden off my shoulders. Like I'm not called to be anybody's savior, you know? So when you talk about, for me, like when I see somebody out in like in public and I see that they're struggling, I do what I can, but also that action of love begins with acknowledging that they are a person who is created in the image and like the Sagat, like we talk about all the time.

Bishop DeDe (15:20.675)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (15:29.538)
Mm.

Bishop DeDe (15:42.743)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (15:46.604)
And that that in and of itself, realizing their humanity is an act of love. And like all of this is a really good shift of the focus for us.

Bishop DeDe (15:55.999)
Absolutely. Cause when I started a practice a long time ago, and there was a reason for it, but when an ambulance would go by, would, I pray for the situation. It's not like 15 minutes of prayer. It's more I, but when I pray for the situation, I internally try to feel that someone is having a hard time, either they've been harmed or they're sick or whatever that's happening. And then especially maybe have died.

to have a moment of recognizing that someone is struggling and to just say, you know, Lord, please be with them. It's a very small thing. But what I found that in doing that, and especially if you live in a place where you hear a lot of ambulances, over time, it sensitizes you to the humanity of others. What so often happens in our lives is we get desensitized to others. We see so much chaos that we're like, you know,

but to resensitize ourselves to the plight of others and allow ourselves to feel that God's grief in that, that these are people God loves and so they matter to God. And we aren't called to be the savior, we're not called to respond with all the, we're called to be concerned about others. And then in our own lives to recognize that if we,

are in our own houses and are in the day to day that the people in our lives to be seeking what's best for them, not for ourselves, not what we want them to be, but what's best for them. And so each time we practice, we get a little stronger. And when we love others, we feel loving and we feel loved. That reciprocity of that commandment that in doing we become.

in loving we are loved. It heals our very souls and it is essential for all of us that we matter, the other person matters.

Adam Eichelberger (18:03.928)
yeah. And for me, this kind of speaks to something that we spoke about recently on the podcast. had a conversation about, compassion fatigue. And I guess my kind of, my, my second question is when we think about what Paul is describing, what, what, what love actually is, we talked about love is patient. It's kind. It's not boastful. It's not rude. That all sounds really good on paper, but it's actually really hard. And I admit that I struggle with.

Bishop DeDe (18:14.711)
Bye bye.

Bishop DeDe (18:25.091)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (18:32.884)
some of these things about love that maybe I don't necessarily put into practice. So what, when we talk about how we put this stuff into practice, how do we start to grow into that kind of love that's not patient, that is kind, that's not boastful, that's not rude when we're really kind of feeling frustrated or hurt.

Bishop DeDe (18:51.331)
Such a good question. And listener, you may have answers and I want to open this up to you to think about those times when those things are true. You are harried and things are going on and there's stress with work or with your own health or other. How do we change that narrative? How do we tap into the love of God in those moments? And what comes to mind even as you're asking the question, Adam, is our own attentiveness to prayer.

We always, I think we try to, you know, sort of work it out ourselves too much. think that we're, God commands us to do it. So we're like, okay, we're going to go do it all on our own power. And we're going to, you know, be the individual hero. That is not the calling of God. The calling of God is to be about love. And so when we feel that way to stop and say, to real, realign ourselves internally with God and to either take a moment to prayer, to pray.

to do one of those, like the meditation on the breath, to have a moment of prayer and realize I don't feel loving, I'm really angry, I'm really feeling a lot of fear. To stop and take that to God and to breathe for a minute. And then when we've realigned to know that the love comes from God, that love is of God, that when we allow ourselves to be suffused in God's love,

then and really only then can we love others or love ourselves. And so when we find ourselves off kilter, then listener, you may have answers that you've been thinking of in your own life to realign ourselves. Maybe reading scripture, maybe listening to music for a minute, but to value our ability to tap into the love of God that's in us that we then are sharing the love of God outside of ourselves.

Adam Eichelberger (20:47.584)
It's kind of, it's funny that I heard you say that because the first thing that kind of bounced into my brain is it kind of feels like we're taking back the idea of like name it and claim it. you know, in, in evangelical theology, there's this idea of naming and claim it when it comes to like finances or my health or this, that, and the other thing. And really what this sounds like to me is like, Hey, I'm going to name the fact that I'm feeling these hard things and I'm struggling with them and I'm going to, I'm going to own it myself. And then how am I going to kind of shift?

Bishop DeDe (20:56.759)
Hahaha

Yeah.

Adam Eichelberger (21:16.706)
The last thing that kind of stood out to me in this, and I'm hoping we can cover this with the time we have left, Bishop, is this that, again, one of the real, this is all kind of, it's very beautiful and it's also really hard. Paul says that love doesn't keep record of the wrongs. And this one kind of gets to me, especially when we see what's going on around us, it's so easy to keep score or carry grudges. So what does it actually look like for us to live into like a forgiving,

Bishop DeDe (21:32.269)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (21:46.636)
record free love.

Bishop DeDe (21:48.963)
and listener y'all, I hope you have the answers out there. Cause I'm not sure I have all the, I do not have all the answers to this, but I do think we little by little, it's a, an intention. think love, you can say many things about love, you know, and we have been it, it, it, it's the root of it in some ways is an intention.

And we are going to get it wrong sometimes when we love others and we think we're really getting it right. We feel good about it. We're not being arrogant. Look at me giving, I'm doing all these things. And then we find that the other person has felt that we were trying to control them. And it's like, okay. Which may be their issue. know, so it's complex. It's very complex. But when you, when you say that, think, you know, this is one of those things that the intention matters and we start slowly and then we have forgiveness for ourselves.

And one of the things with the name and claimant, I sort of, I wanna make sure that I'm clear. God's love is all around us and infused. And when we stop and listen to nature, when we take that moment to recognize our heart is beating and we're breathing and that, you you actually can't make your heart beat, you know, it beats. It's that life that God's put it in.

And when we'd stop and think for a minute that God is with us, then it fills up the well and then we can share it. And so I think that, you know, that is really, again, returning to that time and again, and then having forgiveness for ourselves. And then recognizing that, you know, sometimes we just need the forgiveness of God, that we're, are, we can be arrogant. And then when it comes to grudge holding,

I, you know, I have known people and know people who will say, well, I just, I just, I hold grudges as if it's like, have blonde hair and we may be prone to it, but it's not an acceptable thing. there is a balance here. If someone, if someone is not trustworthy to be trusted, if, if, if when we're, if there's someone that when you are kind to them, they're always harsh.

Bishop DeDe (24:03.831)
There needs to be a boundary there. And we also need to not hold grudges. There needs to be always an invitation to the people around us and to ourselves to try again. I try very hard and especially in my role as bishop to never hold a grudge against somebody else and to work through my feelings about what the situation may be to resolve it. And to the best of my ability to be as much as depends on me and scripture would say.

to be in good relationship with the people around me. And so to forgive another person that they may have done something that really offends me, but I don't know what was happening for them. And so when I deal with them, I try to have that humility in my understanding and to be kind to them. Doesn't mean I'm gonna allow somebody to keep reharming me. I'm gonna set a boundary and be clear about that. And I'm not gonna forget that this person is not safe.

in these ways, but I'm still going to continue to want the best for them and want them to experience God's love. And I'm still as much as depends on me, not going to hold a grudge. And I think it's real tender work. These are hard things. One thing I want to make sure that we'd say today over and over is no one is called to be harmed by another person. That is not the calling.

and when we look at the crucifixion to recognize people rose up and crucified Jesus and Jesus was resurrected that Jesus submitted to that treatment. Not that we are not to be tossed around in harm and, we're not to hold grudges and to always offer forgiveness, seek forgiveness and to seek safety, for other people and for ourselves.

Bishop DeDe (26:04.575)
Listener, this is, this is a tough one. I mean, we talked about faith and we talked about hope. I think love is, is the greatest of all and is the most complex of all. is, it is really important though, for all of us to think about what we think about love and then to talk about it. So I turn this, the microphone to you and I invite you to go to someone you love or that you're around.

Have a conversation about what does love mean to you? How do you understand love? When do you know that you're being loving and when do you not know? To have a conversation about what matters most to you. So until next time, let's continue to speak of our faith, to learn together and to share with this hurting world the love we do receive from God. May you be blessed and be a blessing and we'll talk soon.