What Even Is Faith?

Summary

In this episode of Speaking Of Faith, Bishop DeDe and Adam explore what it means when we talk about faith, discussing its personal nature, the role of doubt, and the importance of articulating one's beliefs. They emphasize the significance of scripture in understanding faith and the challenges of maintaining belief in an intangible God. The conversation encourages listeners to engage in discussions about faith, reflect on their personal journeys, and recognize the presence of God in daily life.

Takeaways

• Faith is often difficult to articulate, yet essential to discuss.
• Personal experiences shape our understanding of faith.
• Doubt is a natural and sacred part of faith.
• Scripture provides a foundation for understanding faith.
• Faith is an internal relationship with a higher power.
• Engaging with others about faith can deepen understanding.
• The busyness of life can distract us from recognizing God's presence.
• Bold faith requires humility and openness to questioning.
• God's love and grace surpass our doubts and fears.
• Faith is a journey that invites continuous exploration.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Faith Conversations

02:39 Understanding Personal Faith

05:22 The Nature of Faith and Doubt

08:13 Scriptural Insights on Faith

11:10 Navigating Faith in Daily Life

13:53 The Challenge of Bold Faith

16:33 Engaging with the Intangible

19:13 Concluding Thoughts on Faith

AI Disclosure: To support our staff in their limited time, many of our episode summaries are first generated by AI and then edited by the Communications Director to accurately reflect and preview our podcast episodes.

Transcript

Bishop DeDe (00:02.121)
Hey friends, welcome to the podcast, Speaking of Faith. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I'm the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York. I am joined by Adam Eichelberger. He is our Director of Communications. And this podcast is about speaking of our faith, learning to articulate what we believe most about life and talking about our faith with others. Our faith in scripture and in the Episcopal Church.

is about sharing our faith, talking about our faith, praying. It is a reality that is meant to be talked about. And yet over the last number of years, maybe our entire lives, I don't know, our ability to talk about our faith is sometimes a little awkward for us. We don't quite know how to bring it up with friends or we're not really sure how to talk about our faith. And I hear from people often,

I don't know enough to talk about my faith. I need to learn more to talk about my faith. So that's the point of this podcast is for all of us to be able to articulate what it is we believe. And I will say in the last few weeks, it occurred to me that maybe we should talk about what faith actually is. Maybe we have a hard time talking about it because we can't quite articulate for ourselves what it is.

that faith is in our own lives. A lot of our faith is built on what we've heard from other people, what we experience in church, the liturgies, the scriptures, and it may be that for us and for you listener, that what your faith is about is something that you've inherited from someone else or you've been told about. Some of us have had experiences, whether through illness or

crises or moments where we've had a really deep sense that there's a larger being in the world than what we know. And we feel connected to that larger being, whether it's out in nature when we're hiking or walking by the ocean where we feel a presence of a larger reality. And that can inform our faith, this sense of God with us, the Emmanuel presence, that sense of

Bishop DeDe (02:22.527)
there being something more. Or it may be that our faith is something that we believe, that it makes sense to us to, intellectually, to think about that creation comes from a force that is loving and good. And we are invited into relationship with that force in the same way we're in relationship with each other at all times. And maybe we come to faith by seeing truth in

the teachings of Jesus and especially in loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself. But for today's podcast, my question to you listener, you often ask me questions, so now I'm gonna ask you a question, is what does faith mean to you? How would you define faith? And what is it to believe and to love God with all that you are? How does that?

happen? What does it look like for you? And I invite you with my asking these questions for you to talk with someone, a friend, a loved one, someone you live with, someone you talk on the phone with, and say, what is faith? Let's talk about that together. I think when we have these conversations, these holy conversations, they invite us to articulate something that often we can't quite see in other ways.

And then for today's podcast, I wanna give us a scriptural basis for these conversations. I encourage you to read in Ephesians, or sorry, Ephesians, Hebrews, read Ephesians two, I mean, it's a good book, but anyway. Hebrews chapter 10, starting with verse 32, sets up this passage. And so if you have a Bible, I encourage you to read Hebrews 10 as a,

a kind of setup for what I'm going to talk about. But in Hebrews 11, one, which follows 10, the scripture says, now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Indeed, by faith, your ancestors received approval. By faith, we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God.

Bishop DeDe (04:48.125)
so that what is seen was made from things that are not seen. In scientific terms, we would talk about ex nihilo, that creation comes out of nothing, that God speaks the world into being, or in Genesis two, in the second Genesis story, God creates things out of nothing, but that behind that creation, behind our world, all that we see,

is an invisible force of God that is creator, that builds up, that infuses life into. And these are very big, complex things for us to get our heads around, I think. So as you're talking with a friend about what is faith and what does it mean to you and why do you believe and when did you start believing in something bigger than you? What struck your heart that caused you to believe?

to really think about your own journey of faith as something that is yours, that you are the manager of, that it's something that it comes for you. So often our faith is given away to someone else that we're supposed to live up to someone else's standards. It's a faith that somebody else is the judge of. But what I'm inviting this conversation today, listener, for us, is that our faith be an expression

of what we naturally, internally, authentically believe about God, what we authentically believe to be true in our lives. And to learn from scripture and especially Hebrews 11.1 that faith is an assurance that we have believed because we have felt God. We believe because something about it rings true for us.

In this world, faith is not often valued unless it's faith in a person, faith in a temporal being, faith in a proof. We often hear people talk about faith, want evidence of God. And the evidence of God is in us, and that's very hard. I mean, it would be so much easier in a way if you could point to, well, there's God, you know, I can hold it in my hand, there's God. But that isn't how faith is.

Bishop DeDe (07:14.313)
Faith is an internal relationship with something bigger than ourselves. Whether we call it a higher power, whether we call it God or Yahweh or another name of God, whether we're thinking of it just as kindness, but that greater force in the world that calls all of us into being. And those powers and those things that are hidden, to value them and know that the conviction of faith is things that are not seen.

When we love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, when we see ourselves as part of creation and act like it, when we allow ourselves to give what it is we have and are to a greater purpose, we feel better. It's just true. When we love our neighbor as ourselves, we feel loved. When we feel compassion for another person, we feel compassion. But these are things that are not seen. They're not.

even evidentiary really, they're things that are part of being.

So I've said a lot of things that are about, that are not seen, Adam, and that are about our being, and that are about what faith is for each of us. What is sort of percolating for you in this conversation about things not seen, but things that are so evident and true?

Adam Eichelberger (08:26.562)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (08:41.816)
think this is actually really important for me specifically listeners and Bishop because I under I have a lot of struggles with the concept of faith, especially when it comes to a lifelong faith in something I can't see. And I think that oftentimes for those of you listeners who are familiar with especially the history of the Church of America, there's a there's a pretty substantive vein.

Bishop DeDe (08:52.053)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (09:11.682)
within Christianity that likes to use that verse that we started with today about evidence or convictions of things not seen to kind of explain away faith is like, you could just have this imaginary friend that, that's there and you're going to be okay. And that's not what the scripture is saying. And it was really helpful for me to hear that reminder for you from you to go back and the reminder that even though there's things like

Bishop DeDe (09:26.837)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-mm.

Adam Eichelberger (09:40.184)
chapters and verses in the Bible. None of these things were originally created like that. They're all connected and without context, it's all pretext, right? If I don't understand where all the stuff that comes from before Hebrews 11 comes from, then like this thing kind of seems a little, my wife is the English major, so I'm not going to maybe use the right word. It's all kind of a little like, like flipping or vapid or whatever, you know, like I just, don't, so.

Bishop DeDe (09:44.33)
Right.

Bishop DeDe (09:49.299)
Right.

Bishop DeDe (10:08.752)
A dangling participle. no, it's... Well, and when we were talking earlier, listener, and I didn't say this earlier, but you know, it is true in what Adam's bringing out is so essential. When we read scripture, it can be very helpful to take out the periods and commas and chapter markings and all that and read it together, put it together. Because when you read chapter 10 into chapter 11, it opens up.

Adam Eichelberger (10:10.676)
Yes.

Bishop DeDe (10:37.223)
a deeper meaning for this. And you are so right, Adam, to point out that people often point to this and say, well, it's mystery. God is mystery. And that's the answer for everything. And on one hand, it's absolutely true. We are not going to get in this realm to a point where we understand God like something under a microscope. God is beyond us, that which cannot be conceived by us as the saints have told us.

There is mystery in faith, but when we just dismiss it as well, things are just mysterious. What we kind of are saying is, well, either I don't really care or I give up or well, it's just not worth my time to focus on. And actually, our faith is essential to focus on because so much of what happens in our lives is pushing us away from our faith.

overworked, we're busy, the noisiness of life, there's a TV, a radio, where can you go for some silence and allow your brain to actually think? We just constantly are being pushed to overdo, and faith is calling us to be. And so being called into being with God's creative force is an essential part of our faith.

But I really appreciate what you said, Adam. And I think for all of us, we probably at times have been guilted by our faith or lack of faith. You know, we not long ago had the passage about Thomas and, you know, quote unquote, doubting Thomas, which I have always taken issues with. If you look at the passages of scripture about Thomas, he is a zealot. He's not, but his doubt is he's trying to question what he believes.

Doubt is a sacred part of our faith, questioning our faith is a sacred part of our faith, and should not be seen as second class or diminutive. It's an essential part. And I think in that passage, I'm borrowing, going off topic a little bit, but when Jesus says, blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed, he's not just speaking to Thomas, he's speaking to Peter, to James and John and all the apostles, all the people with him.

Bishop DeDe (13:03.825)
And he's talking about you and I, listener. Blessed are we who have not seen veridical evidence, who still believe because we feel it, know it, sense it, are willing to trust something that we can't see. And as you say, Adam, not as an imaginary friend, this isn't about, you know, kind of mind games. This is about deep, deep focus on deep, deep things that are not seen.

So are there any, what are some questions listener that you might have about this? I invite you, we always want you to send in questions and comments. If this is helpful to you, if more podcasts about how we talk about things that may be difficult to talk about, if there's subjects you'd like to talk about, I invite you to respond to this podcast and send those in. But Adam, are there any questions or comments that we should

maybe talk about today.

Adam Eichelberger (14:05.954)
Yeah, so I'm doing the heavy lifting for you listeners. I've got a couple that I'm gonna pose to Bishop one or two about this topic of how do we live in that tension of having faith, but it's also in something that we can't see or, you know, there's this, there's this real tension that we walk in. So the first thing that kind of came to my mind when you brought this up is how do we better, how can we, I'm speaking for me and the listeners. And again, we all, as we always say,

Bishop DeDe doesn't have all the answers. It's a chance for us to hear a different perspective and then ask these same questions ourself. But how do we understand God and even like the presence of God or the promise of something better or more lasting in our daily lives, especially when it's something that we can't see or feel or touch. Like you talked about, we're never going to get God under the microscope, but how do we have faith or a belief in that kind of a thing when it seems so

Bishop DeDe (14:35.925)
boy no, yeah

Bishop DeDe (14:55.765)
you

Adam Eichelberger (15:01.61)
intangible? Is that a word? Intangible. I'm going to use it.

Bishop DeDe (15:03.861)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, it is, it is the word. Exactly, and fanciful. You know, think some, you know, you can be derogatory about it, oh, you're just making things up. And listener, I encourage you to think about how would you answer that question? Because this is certainly not about, the idea of speaking about faith, I wanna predicate this again. For this podcast, we're talking about it. I'm not dispensing wisdom from on high, as it were.

We're trying to open up the conversation so that all of us can feel empowered to speak about those things that are important and deep and meaningful in our lives and to create space for us to both have the conversation and learn together. So how would you answer the question about how you, in the midst of busyness, connect with something that is not seen? And when you ask the question, Adam, I always want to respond by saying, I don't know.

Adam Eichelberger (16:01.166)
You

Bishop DeDe (16:01.333)
I'm not sure. But when I think about, and I think about in my busy days, and I certainly have busy days, it's easy for me to kind of go into passive mode where I stop thinking about stuff. I'm just kind of doing, I'm going for the next thing, and I'm listening to people and I'm engaged and I'm active, but I'm not really thinking about things.

with intentionality, I'm not sort of stepping out of the busyness to say, so what are some patterns I'm recognizing here of how people are doing? And where is God in this moment? We talked about in some earlier podcasts about this idea of practicing the presence of God with us, that in those moments when we get really busy, to stop and think, where would Jesus be in this moment with me?

would Jesus be just passively watching or is there something in this where there's a presence to it? And when we stop and we think and identify that presence, whether it's maybe we need to step outside and feel the sun on our face, or if you're in central New York, the cloudiness on your face, and hear the birds and remember that there's a greater creation out there, that there's more in the world than this.

moment we've gotten hyper focused on, or maybe looking at another person and seeing that they're coming with all that they are into this moment with us, whether it's at work or somewhere else. So I think stepping out of the busyness and making room for the space to be attentive to where God is with us in those moments. And it's hard to do. It's not an easy practice. It takes practice too.

to be aware of God's presence, that sometimes we'll be like, I don't feel God at all. I feel anxiety and frustration right now. And to think, well, so in my anxiety and frustration, God loves me and loves the other person.

Bishop DeDe (18:12.467)
So I'm gonna let myself breathe in this moment.

Adam Eichelberger (18:12.504)
No, that's...

Absolutely, that's all really good.

Adam Eichelberger (18:20.714)
So I guess the other question I had as we kind of land the plane as it were is earlier in Hebrews, like I talked about going back to Hebrews 10 to get some context, it talks about enduring suffering and maintaining boldness. And I think that sometimes to me, the idea of bold faith is kind of scary and a little bit of a turnoff.

Bishop DeDe (18:27.092)
Yeah.

Bishop DeDe (18:32.497)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (18:43.413)
The idea of forcing is...

Bishop DeDe (18:49.14)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (18:49.314)
And we've talked in earlier episodes about like how, when we talk about faith, like how not to be heavy handed with it. So like, how do I square up being faithful, especially when it feels like, I don't know if you're like me listener, that it feels like my faith is being tested all the time lately. But, and also like what it means to have, I guess like a bold faith without being heavy handed, especially when it feels like,

Bishop DeDe (18:54.526)
Right.

Bishop DeDe (19:14.165)
Bye.

Adam Eichelberger (19:18.378)
I'm the one who's kind of behind everybody else. And when I say by that is like, so many times I've had conversations, I'm sure you have Bishop, I'm sure you have listeners, where we have a conversation with somebody who doesn't share our same beliefs. And oftentimes it goes fine and it's pretty cordial, but then there's a lot of times we get into kind of almost like conflicts or arguments and the burden of proof gets put on me because I'm trying to explain to somebody something I can't see or feel.

So how do I square up having a bold faith with something I can't see? And how do I do that without, for lack of a better term, being a jerk.

Bishop DeDe (19:57.811)
Well, it's such a great question because, listener, you're probably sitting there thinking, you can think of five people who have been kind of jerky to you, or you've been a jerk to them. And so it's such a great question. And again, this is, you know, I think we all, to be attentive to that and to let the question inform the answer and to know that by asking the question is really important. Cause one aspect of our faith is

is humility. We come to this faith with humility, which is free gift of God that's offered to us in an invitation to deeper living. And so we can accept the offer or reject the offer, but by accepting it, means we're going to be willing to do some work. And some of the work we have to do, because all of us will have doubts and have moments where we think, is this really God or am I just making this up? Or, you know, is this a mind game that we're playing? And you get into

the doubts, and then where's the evidence that there's a God? I'm praying, but nothing's changing. Where is the evidence that my prayers matter? And just to allow ourselves to ask those questions, because those are essential questions to ask, to tell the truth to God. I think God is very capable of us saying to God, look, you're really ticking me off now because I've been trying to do the right thing and you're not showing up. I don't think God is aghast with that. I think God's like, well,

Adam Eichelberger (21:22.742)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (21:27.519)
Thank you for sharing. know, I'm gonna keep loving you. But let's move on. And so I think for all of us, when we get into those spaces where we think is this real and my faith is being tested and I just feel like giving up, that maybe what we need to do is to allow ourselves to rest, to step back. If we feel like we have to prove something about our faith, we're probably in the wrong end of the stick.

Our faith is an invitation to living and being in relationship. And so when we have to have things go a certain way, our anxiety, our fear, our desire, whatever it is, probably has gotten in the way of what God is actually doing. So when I hear you say, you know, how do I know and what do I do when I feel like my faith is tested and I just don't believe God's gonna show up? I think we can say to God, look, I don't believe you're gonna show up. I need some assurance here.

I'm doing my best and I just don't know how to do more. So I'm going to sit down for a second and I'm going to take a beat and I'm going to rest.

and I'm gonna trust that you're gonna show up at some point and when I'm ready. And then to be mindful that sometimes we're so busy looking for God to show up in a particular way that we miss the 10 other ways God's showing up. That when we have a heart of gratitude, we can see that I've been waiting for this person to call me and yet this other person has rung my door.

This other person has spoken to me. This other person has invited me. And who have I invited? Who am I calling? I'm sort of in this, locked into this situation of passively waiting for someone to prove to me that they care enough to call me rather than me taking the initiative to make a phone call. I'm using that as an illustration because one of the aspects of it not being seen and us talking about faith, it's hard to talk about faith. It's hard to speak about faith.

Bishop DeDe (23:30.301)
It's hard to speak about something and not wonder if we're wrong about it. And sometimes we are wrong about it. And so part of not being a jerk to someone is the willingness to be wrong. Someone not long ago said to me, the church, can't be part of the Christian church because of how it's damaged the world. And I wanted to respond with, you know, feeding programs and clothing programs. But I stopped and I said, I can really appreciate that. The church has failed in many ways.

and it opened up an ability to talk about truth. The truth will set us free. So if our faith, we're trying to prove something that may or may not hold all of the truth, it's gonna be hard to do that. But we can allow ourselves to speak about faith with trust in God knowing that our fear, our anxiety, our disappointments are not...

bigger than God's grace and mercy and forgiveness and healing and restoration. God's love is always greater and that is where we rest our faith most especially. So dear listener, we've talked about something that's intangible and as we're talking about it, it may have spurred for you conversations you want to have. I pass the baton to you. I asked you question in the beginning, what does faith mean to you? What do you think faith is?

And so I invite you to read Hebrews 10 and 11 and have a do some Bible study or to have a conversation with the person to think in your own heart, to pray about it and how in your journey, when you feel your faith is tested, how might you respond to that with resting, with changing the narrative a bit, with allowing space for your faith to grow and to treasure and nurture your own journey of faith?

So be well, know that you are loved and love beyond measure, that God's faithfulness is greater than our questions, and I look forward to speaking of faith with you very soon. Take good care.