Praying For The People We Don't Want To

Summary

In this episode, Bishop DeDe and Adam discuss the significance of prayer in the Episcopal Church, particularly in relation to community, leadership, and social justice. They explore the challenges of praying for leaders with whom one may disagree, emphasizing that prayer is not about approval but about inviting God into the conversation. The discussion also highlights the transformative power of prayer, its role in fostering understanding and compassion, and the importance of advocating for justice and dignity in society. The episode concludes with reflections on Lenten observance and the call to live out one's faith in action.

Takeaways

-Prayer is a communal act that connects us to God.
-Praying for leaders is essential, regardless of personal feelings.
-Prayer can influence leaders to act with wisdom and grace.
-Engaging in prayer is an active way to promote justice.
-Seeing others through God's eyes can transform relationships.
-Prayer is a revolutionary act that invites God into our conflicts.
-We are called to advocate for the dignity of all persons.
-Lenten observance is a time for reflection and advocacy for justice.
-Prayer helps us navigate our emotions and find peace.
-Community dynamics require careful handling to avoid triangulation.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Faith and Prayer
02:48 The Role of Prayer in Community and Leadership
06:08 Praying for Leaders We Disagree With
08:46 The Transformative Power of Prayer
11:49 Prayer as a Tool for Justice and Healing
15:04 Navigating Conflict and Community Dynamics
18:10 Reflections on Lenten Observance

AI Disclosure: To support our staff in their limited time, many of our episode summaries are first generated by AI and then edited by the Communications Director to accurately reflect and preview our podcast episodes.

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00.386)
Hey friends, welcome to the podcast, speaking of faith. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I'm the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York. That's Canada to Pennsylvania, Utica to Elmira and all the beautiful people and places in between. I'm joined today by Adam Eichelberger. He is our Director of Communications and we're going to speak about our faith. The purpose of this podcast is to offer a space for us to talk about what is important in our faith or what we're.

questioning or how we are. We are going to speak about what we hope for our faith as well as what we do. Now if you have questions or comments, please do post those, send those in. I'm always interested in not only your questions, but in what is relevant to you. What are you curious about? What are you uncertain about or would love to talk more about? I hope that this podcast will also motivate you to speak with someone.

that it might empower you to speak about your faith with a loved one, a friend or a colleague. So let's get into it. Today we're gonna be speaking about our faith and about prayer. One of the things in the Episcopal Church that's very not necessarily unique, but I think it might be unique given where we come from, is the way in which we pray for our nation. There is a very close link with the Church of England, which was envisioned to be the state.

at prayer historically. It was to be a place where the nation prayed. We in the United States of America have inherited this kind of understanding. We have in the Episcopal Church a book that has all of our services or most of them, not all anymore, we have additional items in it. But we have our book of common prayer that we come together with common prayer, what we hold in common. That means that we by

nature of our praying, pray for our nation and our world. In our liturgies, every time we gather, there are prayers for our president, for our governors, for those in authority in the world, and we pray for them. We pray for the people in our communities. We pray for those who are hurting, who are alone or afraid. And we pray that our ministers and those clergy in the church will be reaching out and helping people in our communities.

Speaker 1 (02:22.568)
Our prayer is very much tied to our baptismal covenant that we've made, and you've heard me talk about that. It's also tied to our understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that our faith is meant to be in community, not only within the church, but within the wider world, that we have a message of hope for the world. Now I want to talk a little bit about what do we do in the church when

We're going to be praying for the president. We don't like the president. And this is down through the ages. This is not just partisan one way or the other. There have been times all through the history of the church where communicants might not really like the president that they have, whether they're Democrat, Republican, or otherwise. And so what we do is we pray for them. We pray that God would be known, that God would influence, that God would...

encourage our leaders to act in ways that help our nation to honor the dignity of every human. That our leaders would offer hope to people and that they would be working for the betterment of our society. That there would be more justice, more equality, and more freedom for people. We even have quite a few prayers that focus on this not only in the liturgy as their space for this, but in the back of the prayer book there is a section called

other prayers or additional prayers. And on page 820, for instance, the back of the Book of Common Prayer is a prayer that's interesting. It says, Lord, our governor, whose glory is in the world. We commend this nation to thy merciful care that being guided by thy providence, we may dwell secure in thy peace. That sense of praying for the world that there would be peace and goodness.

that we would be guided to calm our fears or that we would be guided to work more justly. And so on page 820, we also have more prayers that have to do and speak specifically to our president, speak to what it is that we want our president to be about. And so in your heart, in your mind, in your practice, I wonder what it's like for you to be praying for the leaders of the country.

Speaker 1 (04:43.628)
This is again, not meant to be a partisan issue. It's also especially not meant to be praying that the person you dislike, your Senator, that know, fire would rain down on their head. It's meant to be praying for our leaders that they would be influenced by their best self. That they too would bring to their office a sense of morality, of integrity, decency and dignity for other humans. It is important.

that we utilize prayer as a starting place and an ending place and somewhere in between to pray at all times, that we pray for our leaders, that we pray for one another, that we pray for the outcast, and then that we back up our prayers by the way we act, by where we purchase items, with how we utilize our money, with working for justice in our local community.

that we're active with either the food bank or with the people who live around us, that we not only pray, but we also act. And to push back a little bit on that kind of nomenclature that to pray is not to do anything, that we actually pray as doing something. That prayer is an active way of engaging the world where we are part of a healing, a desire for healing. Now,

There are different kinds of prayer and we'll get into those in later episodes. But for today, I want to really zero in on this understanding of praying. One of the things that's happened and happens all the time, and I mentioned praying for leaders we may not like, is on Sunday mornings, we'll go to pray for one of our leaders and people will refrain from saying the name. And for those who are supportive of the leader,

they'll feel offended because they're like, pray for our leader. And for others, they'll feel like they can't pray for the leader because somehow it means they're approving of something. Our prayers are not about approving or disproving a human. Our prayers are about bringing God into the conversation. And so when we're talking about the leadership of our country, we're praying for

Speaker 1 (07:03.404)
God to be brought into that understanding of what makes our country great or strong or hopeful or kind. That what we're doing is praying for our world to be more closely resembling God's love for us. So I've talked a bit about this and Adam, I don't know if there's questions or comments that you have, but I want to bring you into this and for us to speak about this.

This is a really great topic, Bishop, because I know recently here in our diocese in central New York, we had a clergy gathering and our clergy came together for a day of prayer, obviously, and reflection and conversation. And we had the question asked during that time together, during that session, that I think is really beneficial for all of us who are listeners. When we are praying and we're praying for a government official that we don't agree with, and especially like how we square that with

what you talked about in the Book of Common Prayer. On page 820, like you mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer, it says, And so I guess it's like you said, we're not praying for someone's downfall or for

them to get hit by a bus. how do we in the pews for those of us who do attend an Episcopal service on Sundays, like how do we square that if the people who are in positions of power we fundamentally disagree with, especially in the light of this prayer?

I really appreciate the question and I think it was so important to ask and talk about. The way we square it is that we are not praying to approve, again, to approve of their legislation or to say that we want to encourage them and how they may be doing something we feel is unjust or immoral, but rather that we're praying for them that in whatever way possible, God might act in their life. And as I think it's Proverbs says, the heart of the King is in the hand of the Lord.

Speaker 1 (09:15.244)
that in praying for our leadership, that our leaders might be changed or influenced. On page 821, we also have, the president and members of the cabinet, to governors of states, mayors of cities, and to all in administrative authority, grant wisdom and grace in the exercise of their duties. Now that can sound like what we're saying is, bless them in what they are doing that we disapprove of. What it actually is talking about,

really is holding them up and saying in their authority, may they have wisdom, which is actually a charism of God, that they would be looking at what they're doing through the lens of the creator God who loves and cares for us. That in somewhat what we're praying for is conviction for them that they would, when they go to enact a law or a ruling of whatever nature, that they would do so with wisdom and grace.

that they would have a sense of, wait a minute, what I'm doing has bearing on humans' lives and I have a responsibility. And to be praying for the just and right use of their office. so prayer really is revolutionary. It's a defiant act to be praying. I mean, the ability in the midst of a conflict to stop and pray, if we're in conflict with someone else, if we stop and pray,

It changes hearts. It changes the situation. It changes the conversation to hold the conversation not only before God, but to invite God into the conversation. So if we really are struggling with one of our leaders and not liking what they're doing, praying for them is really a way of bringing God into the conversation and being revolutionary. It is an act of holding up.

what we want to see. It doesn't mean there are gonna change. isn't magic thinking. It is praying and bringing that to the world.

Speaker 2 (11:21.966)
Oh yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that's been really beneficial for me in my prayer life is I'm thankful that I have a God that is listening to the things that I'm praying for. But I am also continually mindful of the fact that I have to sometimes silence myself to be a little crass. I got to shut up and get out of the way and listen to what it is that God is saying to me in these moments where I'm praying. So in this...

very specific instance, if I have disagreed it with somebody who's in authority and I'm called to pray for them, I'm offering that prayer, I'm offering it sincerely with the expectation that I'm going to get out of the way and listen to what God is trying to say to me when I make that prayer. And I think that that's something that we have to constantly be mindful of, not just on Sundays, but all the time.

It's an active way that we love our neighbor. mean, when we are faced with a neighbor, a friend, a colleague, or a person in holding office, one way we love somebody is to create space to see them through God's eyes. And so when we're praying for, let's say you're really not keen on your literal neighbor, the one that's just south of your house. You don't like them. They're somebody who you really feel very strongly about.

When we start praying for them, something happens within us because we stop being focused only on our interest and start focusing on their humanity. And over time, it may take a long time, but sometimes that anger that we start out with sort of slowly, it may still be there in terms of our, don't like this about the neighbor, but we start seeing them through a different lens and maybe start listening with a different lens. Maybe we start seeing that they're

afraid, which is why they're always so angry seeming to us. For our leaders, when we start praying for them, then they go from being these big figures that are sort of monolithic to being humans we're praying for. Instead of it being somebody who is 10 feet tall, they become another child of God who we disagree with. We dislike what they're doing. We feel they're being unjust. And so we're praying for another child of God.

Speaker 1 (13:39.668)
It sort of normalizes that we're all sinners saved by grace in a way, because we are. It also helps us change the narrative. So instead of looking at an elected official and disagreeing with them, it almost forces us to say, what is it we want them to do then? Well, we want them to be just. Well, what does justice mean then? How are we going to pray for them? And it helps us in our own thinking.

for the person not to be monolithic, but it also helps us get clear about what do we really wanna see in our society? What do we really want to happen? And so prayer is a great way to resist. It's a great resistance tool. It's a great revolutionary tool. It's a healing. And I'm saying tool, I don't mean to be diminishing it, but it's a way in which we do all of these things. It's a way in which we act and bring God into a conversation.

And perhaps most especially, Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies, to love our enemies. And so when we're praying on a Sunday morning or evening, having prayer time or whatever time we're praying, and we're praying for that elected official we don't like, we're following the teachings of Jesus, we're remembering who we are, we're elevating Jesus above our feelings, and we're reminding ourselves that in the way we want the elected official to act,

is how we may need to act. We may be praying for them on a national or international level, but on the local level, we have ways that maybe we need to be about justice or peace. Maybe we're not doing our own part locally. And so by praying for the president, the governor, those who hold authority and office in the world, we're joining in the good work of wanting our society to be more just, for wanting our society to be

more inclusive to honor the dignity of all human beings.

Speaker 2 (15:39.214)
And it's so great, one of the things that you said, one of the things that I heard in all of that is prayer, especially the way that Jesus teaches us how to pray, becomes the great equalizer. Yes. There is no one who is immune to its effects, and there is nobody who is too small for prayer. And I think that so often we get this vision of faith or of religion,

That's right.

Speaker 2 (16:07.288)
specifically in Christianity that there seem to somehow be those who fall outside or should I say above this need for prayer? And what we learn from this and I'm so thankful as somebody who is really starting to discover the Book of Common Prayer is that it is this great gift that's given to us as the church that there is, you know, if we echo Paul, there's no Gentile or Jew, there's no servant or free, there's no man or woman. Everybody is on the same

level playing field that we all need that prayer. That's right. And we are all in need of the effects of prayer, I think.

I think so too. And I think if we feel ourselves getting rattled by someone who's holding office, if we're feeling afraid and it's causing us to feel strong emotions, that when we pray, we connect ourselves with the ultimate power in the universe, which is God. And we're connecting ourselves with something that's bigger than the situation. And we can find peace amid the time. And so it's so important and it is a great normalizer.

Now, do we have any questions this week? don't know. I'm always curious.

We absolutely do. There are two that our listeners have brought to you for a little bit of further examination. And first of all, big shout out to Lloyd, who is one of our listeners here in our diocese, who was paying attention in the previous episode when we were discussing dealing with church hurt and working towards healing. And Lloyd asked a great question is what is the line between triangulation and appropriate involvement of the rector?

Speaker 2 (17:47.254)
in the dispute between parishioners. So I think that first off, mean, obviously I just as much as Lloyd does want, I want an answer to the question, but also Bishop, if you don't mind, could you really quickly for those who are listening, maybe don't understand what triangulation is, get into it for us what triangulation means and then answer Lloyd's question like, where's the line between triangulation and getting involved in the disagreement or dispute?

That's a great question, Lloyd. And yes, triangulation for those who may not be aware is if, let's say you're unhappy with person A and instead of going to person A, you go to person B and share all your feelings with person B and then person B kind of gets upset with person A and then you're off to the races. There's been triangulation where you've involved other people in a situation that really needs to stay between the two parties that are upset. Now in a church environment,

Sometimes this can be a little difficult to manage. It's also a temptation. I think some people just heard my description and said, well, that's the way conflict is always handled, is that we involve other people. And sadly, that's probably true to some degree, that we need to avoid triangulation because it really breaks down the community, whether it's a church or a school or colleagues or whatever, or a family. So with triangulation and a pastor, the...

The good role is if someone's gone to their pastor and said, I'm really upset with person A, for the pastor to say, what do you need to go and talk with person A and resolve this conflict? I can sit down with you, I can be kind of a mediator, but you need to go to person A and talk with them. And last week we talked about we should go first to the person and try to resolve it. If that doesn't work, then take someone with us. In the best circumstances, the pastor will go and be

kind of a neutral person in the conflict and help both parties come to some resolution. What can happen and often does is the pastor can take a side and actually think one person's wrong and one person's right. And that isn't terribly helpful because then it makes means there's more conflict that's going to have to be dealt with. It's much better if we can listen to each other and be affirming of two adults working through it. But for the pastor, if that

Speaker 1 (20:07.384)
has been overstepped, then for the person who's feeling a bit maligned to say, you know, I would like to sit down and talk because I feel that I've been ganged up on here or to have the conversations we need to have. It really depends, Lloyd, on what the situation is. You may need to bring in an advocate on your own behalf to say, you know, this happened, this has gotten blown out of proportion. Now we have all these people involved in the conflict.

I think we should go back to calming down and just talking about what needs to be addressed. There's a thing called a drama triangle, which is like the triangulation, but a drama triangle, let's imagine a mother and daughter in the kitchen having a fight, father walks in and intervenes on behalf of the daughter, and then the mother gets mad at the father, and then the daughter starts defending the father. And so pretty soon you're running around this drama triangle where you have the aggressor.

the victim and the bystander and suddenly those positions keep changing and you get all swirled around in a drama. In order to step outside the drama triangle, it means one person stops and says, okay.

Let's take a breath and let's deal with what's really happening here. And in the church community, the hope is that the pastor will be the most calm part of that group. That is not always true because pastors are people too. And so in that situation, Lloyd, one of the parish leaders or if need be even taking it to, you know, the senior pastor or in our case to the bishop and say, we need to work through this conflict.

and we've gotten off track here. And so talking with each other, listening, trying to hear what really is being said. And then of course, if there's angry feelings, to listen for where a person may be feeling afraid. What is happening? What are we not understanding? Resolving conflict is a wonderful thing. And sometimes we need people to help us with that. But let's try not to triangulate out there.

Speaker 2 (22:13.034)
Good advice for all of us. The last question that we have didn't actually come to us through the website or in our comments or anything like that, but it was a question that was asked recently by one of our clergy again in a meeting space. And they posed the question kind of as a joke, who's already screwed up their Lenten observance. And in a side conversation I had with them, they thought it'd be a great question for you here on the podcast. How Bishop has your Lenten observance been going? Has it been going well?

Have you dropped the ball anywhere? That's what our listeners, especially some of our clergy, want to know. How has your lent been going?

Well, that is a really thoughtful question and I appreciate that very much. My Lent has gone well this year. It's been very busy. There's been a lot happening this Lent. I've had some very long days, but wonderful on the whole. I was grateful that one of the walks, I talked about walking for Lent. One of the walks I got to have this past week while I was at the House of Bishops meeting was to go to Selma and walk across the Pettus Bridge.

That is always so powerful having done that before, but to be in that space and to remember those who advocated for justice, those who suffered for justice. And our call today to be about that work and to join in the march. And so that was a wonderful addition to my Lenten observance to be there and literally touch the bridge and just think about how each of us.

in our own lives and hearts, how we are advocating for justice, for inclusivity, for equality for people of color in this time when there are challenges around. I think some don't know. I realized while we were there and we were talking with some folks, there are some other friends who did not realize that people of color right now are often carrying their birth certificates and their paperwork with them.

Speaker 1 (24:10.412)
because with some of the raids that have happened, there was one raid in fact, where a veteran was arrested and when he showed his military badge, the officers didn't believe him and took the badge and ripped it up. And he was in prison for a bit until they proved that he actually had been a Marine. And so in this time, some of the rhetoric that's happening has really been threatening to God's beloved people. And so part of my Lenten observance is to take.

seriously our call for justice and our advocacy for the dignity of others. And so it's been a good lens for me. It's been a good reminder, but it also has deepened my faith and my understanding that how we live is meant to be aligned with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And that gospel means that we care for our neighbor and that we seek to serve Christ in all persons. So thank you listeners for being with us, for speaking about faith.

I encourage you to be praying for the leaders of our country, to be praying for mercy and grace, to be praying for the dignity of all persons. And until I see you next time, I look forward to speaking of faith.