Dealing with Church Hurt

Summary

In this episode of Speaking of Faith, Bishop DeDe tackles the complexities of faith, particularly focusing on the experiences of hurt and disappointment within church communities. The conversation explores the importance of healing, forgiveness, and creating compassionate environments that nurture faith. Bishop DeDe also emphasizes the need for humility and understanding in navigating conflicts and the significance of engaging new people in faith practices, while sharing personal experiences and spiritual practices that foster connection and community.

Takeaways

-Faith conversations help us learn and understand better.
-Experiencing disappointment in the church is common.
-Healing requires community and open dialogue.
-Forgiveness is essential for personal and communal growth.
-Conflict in the church can and will happen.
-Compassionate communities are built on understanding and respect.
-Engaging with diverse perspectives enriches faith.
-Intentionality in relationships fosters healing.
-We must strive to create welcoming spaces for all.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Faith Conversations
01:01 Experiencing Hurt in the Church
05:17 Healing from Church Harm
09:37 Navigating Conflict and Forgiveness
12:51 Creating Compassionate Communities
22:15 Engaging New People in Faith
25:10 Spiritual Practices for Connection

AI Disclosure: To support our staff in their limited time, many of our episode summaries are first generated by AI and then edited by the Communications Director to accurately reflect and preview our podcast episodes.

Transcript

Bishop DeDe (00:02.296)
Hey friends, welcome to the podcast. We're going to speak of faith. This means it's a conversation. So your questions are welcome. You get to let us know how you're thinking about this and all of us together speak of our faith in order to not only proclaim our faith, but to learn about our faith. Sometimes when we talk about our faith is when we realize that there are things we maybe don't know or don't totally understand or things we like to understand better. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probee.

I am the Bishop of Central New York. That's from Canada to Pennsylvania, Utica to Elmira and all those beautiful people and places in between. I'm joined by Adam Eichelberger. He is our Director of Communications and it is wonderful to have this opportunity to talk with you. Today's topic, I was following up a little bit on last week's conversation around conviction when we're convicted of something, but right behind that or the long side of it,

What happens in the church when we really do feel that we've been hurt or harmed or the church has let us down or we feel disappointed? What are some ways that you have found listener to heal from that? I invite us all to consider the ways in which when people come together in community, whether it's a family or a civic organization and especially in the church, when we're talking about such deep and personal things as our faith.

there are moments when we bang into each other. And Paul talks about iron sharpening iron and inciting one another to good works. Sometimes that iron sharpening iron really digs in and can cause harm. And sometimes the church just gets it wrong. I one of my personal opinions, this is me speaking not on behalf of the church or the diocese necessarily, but as Dee Dee Duncan Burby, can say,

I think our theology of God and our understanding of God comes from the past. We don't yet know the future. We can only sort of, you know, pretend or suspect or sort of dream about. But when we look back, we see God's hand at work. And sometimes when we look back, we realize, my goodness, I was wrong there. I used to have this theology. I used to have this belief. I was part of something that now I look at and think,

Bishop DeDe (02:26.848)
I need to ask forgiveness for that. That was not the way of Jesus. Or we look back and we think, okay, so I kind of get it. So this understanding I have of God is going to carry me into the future. As people who believe in community and a communal faith, it goes without saying that at some point in that community, we may experience harm, we may experience anger, frustration with one another.

that we have to literally, as Paul says, work out our faith. That in being in community calls out both our best and worst sometimes. We look at each other and we like a certain hymn. We wanna sing that hymn and somebody else really hates that hymn. I'm saying bringing this up because those of you who are in the church community know this is a fairly common source of conflict. Do you love?

Adam Eichelberger (03:17.204)
Hehehehehe

Bishop DeDe (03:21.516)
You know, there's a couple of hymns I will not say here, but there are some that people either love them or hate them. And then people will be very like, I don't like that hymn. I love that hymn. Why don't you like that hymn? And then off they go. More seriously, the church at times has had theologies which were really errant. Thinking slavery could be an acceptable form of civic society or seeing women as second class or actually as chattel.

LBGTQ plus person seeing them as people who are abject sinners. These places are places where as we grow in our faith and look at scripture with contemporary minds, we can see there's been mistakes made. Some still believe some of these things to be true. I cannot speak for them, but I can say for me and in the Episcopal Church, we have an understanding that

God blesses us in the diversity in which God creates us. That whether it's LGBTQ plus persons, people of color, women, that all of us inherently are part of God's kingdom, God's kindom. That Christ is in us so that when we love one another and two or more are gathered, we meet Jesus. And this isn't to say, I think we also look at these things and say, well, this act is a sin and that act is not.

when really sin is what breaks us and keeps us from God. And that isn't about a particular maybe even thing that we do. It is about our relationship with God and one another. What causes harm, what brings healing. So when we've experienced these places where iron has sharpened iron or even worse iron has dug in and not been helpful, then how to heal from that, how to come back when the community

has really caused us to struggle. And that for each of us listener is going to be something that each of us may have a way in which we have found there to be healing. Maybe we start off by speaking with someone. The Bible tells us to go to a person and speak with the person and if they can't hear us, just take someone with us. And if the person still can't hear us, to talk about it with the council.

Bishop DeDe (05:44.172)
there's real relationship in our communities and we need communities to heal. So I think we, just like anything else, we ask forgiveness, we make amendment of life. We may need to really repent in the best way, change our mind, to offer kindness and forgiveness instead of harshness and judgment. And for those of us who have been harmed, to look for other communities that do honor our dignity, to look for other places where a community

we feel supported. think, you know, looking back in the history of the church and looking at some of the fathers of the faith of Christianity who were fathers largely for a long period of time, it's easy to look back and say those people and what's wrong with them. I think in the same way we look at our parents and offer forgiveness and say, you know,

They were doing the best they could at the time. Some parents are not doing the best they can. Some parents are not trying to be good parents, but by and large, parents who are trying to be good parents make mistakes. And so we recognize their humanity. So what we've inherited in the church, we try to recognize the humanity of those who brought it forward. They didn't know what they didn't know. And they were trying to get it right and they got it wrong. And so we can even offer forgiveness to them.

but then seek out communities where we are loved and supported and nurtured. When there is a division in the church, to talk with one another and to seek healing and restoration, to forgive one another, to offer prayers for the person. I find when there is division in a community, often the last thing we do is sit down with the person and pray together, which is probably one of the first things we should do, is sit down together, pray together.

and talk honestly with one another, but without an intent to hurt or harm. Conflict and challenge in the church is not a new thing. Whether we're looking at the Nicene Creed or any of the parts of our faith, the book of John, there's all examples in the Hebrew and epistles and gospel scriptures. There are all these examples of when humans have wrestled with one another.

Bishop DeDe (08:08.29)
because faith is so deep and profound. So when we speak of faith, I think we want to start with humility, with compassion, and with a true recognition that all of us need to be saved. All of us need the salvation of Jesus. And when we seek the salvation of Jesus in reconciliation when possible with one another, in forgiveness when possible within ourselves, then we find the peace that passes understanding that

that not only is it a gift from God to be at peace, but it is something we can be about in the ways we work together and forgive one another and seek a new way. I am pleased that in this diocese, our relationship with LGBTQ persons, for people of color, that we're doing our work and we're doing the best that we can. This doesn't mean we haven't made some serious mistakes over the years. It doesn't mean that we still aren't.

making mistakes, but it means we're seeking to do the right thing. And as Thomas Merton tells us in this beautiful prayer, that when we seek to do the right thing, that God is pleased with us and brings healing and mercy. So Adam, I've said a whole bunch of stuff. That's a very deep topic, but what, I don't know if there's some questions from people or questions, things that come to your mind as we talk about how to take that next step in healing.

when we feel harmed or disappointed in the church.

Adam Eichelberger (09:41.14)
No, absolutely, Bishop. And we do have some questions. We have two from some of our friends who have been listening that we're going to come to here in a minute. I think the first thing that I wanted to ask is, as I have, I will say that I come from a kind of a privileged position that I've never really experienced a whole lot of hurt in the church. There are things that have let me down.

Bishop DeDe (10:06.382)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (10:10.352)
in the church and I've shared a little bit about that on your podcast and thank you for letting me share about those things. But you and I have talked about it. I've talked about it with several others, especially in my experience coming up in the Roman Catholic faith and to all anybody who listens to this, is a practicing Roman Catholic or has a history in the Roman Catholic Church, I'm not trying to bury anybody here, but there are things about my time there that led me here.

Bishop DeDe (10:16.078)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (10:33.022)
Right, right.

Adam Eichelberger (10:39.378)
because of disappointments or hurts or lacks. I think that, but I mean, by and large, never really been directly hurt by the church. But I acknowledge that there may be some of you listeners who have been in one way, or form by some church community. And if anybody hears this and they feel emboldened to try and go back to a practice of the faith and find a community, first of all,

Bishop DeDe (10:42.07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (10:49.794)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (10:56.366)
and

Adam Eichelberger (11:07.71)
fantastic. I think that that's great. And our hope in having this conversation, think Bishop, is to help people find the tools to do that. My big question is, for those of us who are in the church, what are some things that we can do to try and avoid causing the hurt? And you said it great. This is a thing built up on people.

Bishop DeDe (11:17.134)
Mm hmm.

Bishop DeDe (11:29.901)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (11:35.472)
And people are imperfect. And frankly, thank God for that. Thank God that none of us have to be God and be perfect. But what are the things that we can do in our own churches to try and to be smarter and be more compassionate to the people who come through our doors?

Bishop DeDe (11:35.512)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (11:42.679)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (11:53.642)
Mm-hmm. It's such a great question. And so, listener, I welcome you to answer this question too in the comment section and offer your input. I think from me, because I have been actually harmed in the church, I have had, even when I was ordained, I've had experiences of people physically confronting me, you know, being shoved by...

a man who didn't like what I was saying as a woman, you know, verbally. yeah, I had a very, we mended the fence, but he was unhappy with something I said in a Bible study and he shoved me into a wall. He's very tall man, about six foot six. It was very scary for me as a new priest because he shoved me and he said a lot of things he shouldn't have said.

Adam Eichelberger (12:29.79)
Whoa.

Bishop DeDe (12:51.974)
And so in that moment, I sat back and I said, you know, do not touch me again. And you need to leave the building or I will call the police. And so it was a very, assaultive moment. I spoke with my Bishop who, well-meaning and well-intentioned did not mean to really pass me off. I really know, but he said, well, he sees himself as a defender of the faith, excusing the behavior. You know, boys will be boys and.

That was hard for me because then I knew that what I needed to do was handle the situation without sort of the support of the hierarchy as it were. And again, I knew that this bishop supported my ministry, but in his sort of lens, this was not a crisis for him. For me, it was really destabilizing to feel the physical aggression. And so I had my senior,

at the time, we had an honest conversation with this person. We kind of had some conversations around it and we did follow up. There have been times when people have felt that I have wronged them. You know, and that I, especially I think the one that comes up sometimes for those of us who preach is someone who thinks we're talking about them. My particular preaching style is never personal to a person really.

I'm talking about theology, but if somebody feels I've spoken ill, then I try to make amends and say, I'm so sorry that you heard that. And I listened to them. I think being curious, seeking to understand. If somebody's new to a parish and they have a name that we're not familiar with, learn the name, learn how to say it, learn how to spell it. Not to, you know,

Well, I don't know how to say that, so I'm gonna call you Teddy. No, we learn the actual person's name of dignity. When I'm confirming people, I'll ask, what name do you identify as being yourself? Canonically, the baptismal name is there, because I'm confirming a baptismal covenant that was made at a time when the person was a child. But as an adult, sometimes they have a different name they hear as.

Bishop DeDe (15:17.14)
as their own, we are to respect and honor the dignity of every person and to work for justice. And so part of that is to be curious. if somebody tells us, feel really threatened when you want to, you know, maybe one of those places for some of us that are big huggers, we're, you know, can have a hug offensive, you know, where someone comes in and we just say, I'm a hugger and we hug them best of intentions, not what the person really wants.

And so we need to pay attention to the other person. And so I think a lot of times the harm we cause in churches is not at all nefarious or intentional. It's a sin of blindness to the reality of someone else. To be curious, to ask questions, and not in a probing way, not under a microscope way, genuinely wanting to learn about a person. And then if someone says,

Adam Eichelberger (15:47.255)
yeah.

Bishop DeDe (16:16.43)
you really offended me when you said X, Y, and Z. To be open to it, not that we're gonna say, oh, okay, well, since they were offended, I must have made a mistake, but rather to say, oh, since you were offended, I take this as seriously as if I were offended. And certainly, often when we talk about harm by the church, we talk about the big things, which are very, very, very serious.

Adam Eichelberger (16:45.904)
Absolutely.

Bishop DeDe (16:46.114)
whether it's pedophilia, whether it's people stealing money from the plate or whatever, these things are really have to be addressed and seriously. But what we're talking here today, I wanna keep the bounds of this speaking of faith conversation in the realm of when we're in community and somebody is always asked to bring the cookies, but no one else is ever allowed to share in that or when there are things that are said that shouldn't be said.

Adam Eichelberger (17:06.1)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (17:16.046)
We need to be responsible to one another. That part of the way we heal is when we see in another's eyes the hurt that we can cause. We ask for forgiveness, we make amendment of life, and we take it seriously. I've had people over the years laugh off some of the things that for me are not a laughing matter. And sometimes on rare occasion I've felt enough

concern about it that I've gone back and said, you know, you laughed about this, but I just want to reframe that for you. This is how I heard it. Sometimes the other person is not in a place where they can receive that. But I think for all of us, when we speak of faith, we need to speak with truth and honesty, with compassion and mercy, and seeking a reconciling way with other people to have hospitality for

one another and the true Benedictine sense to make a space for someone else's perspective. know, the church is not the place to demand that we get our way. It's just not.

Adam Eichelberger (18:27.604)
And that's so good for us to remember that like, especially in those scenarios, like the first thing that I heard when you said, like, hey, there's been a time where I was preaching or I was speaking and I said something that somebody was hurt by or they took it, they internalized it and that's not meant to minimize, but they internalize it and then they came to you. Like one of the great things that I've learned in being here is like, you know what, I'm hearing this, I'm hearing you say that. And a lot of times it feels like it's like, it's right after a service.

Bishop DeDe (18:41.07)
I

Mm-mm.

Bishop DeDe (18:56.331)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (18:56.636)
And like, can't, I can't, I want to get into this with you and really identify what it is that happened so we can get to a better place. One of the best things that we can do is identify and acknowledge and then say like, let's find a time soon where we can actually have a conversation about this and talk about it. I can hear you and like, and really be mindful, like not to put the onus on the person who is, who is injured or feeling.

Bishop DeDe (19:05.55)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (19:13.026)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (19:17.197)
Mm-hmm.

Adam Eichelberger (19:24.094)
hurt, but like, hey, like, I really want to get to the bottom of this and I don't want to try and fix it in a minute after church. So I really like that you said that.

Bishop DeDe (19:26.861)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, and also, you know, sometimes when someone has been offended by a sermon, for instance, and one, hopefully, this, if you think this is about you, listener, this isn't about you or someone else, so I'll just say that. I preached a sermon one time, and a woman left the church.

Adam Eichelberger (19:48.212)
It's about Adam. It's Adam's fault.

Bishop DeDe (19:54.478)
And she was very upset because she said, when you preach that, you looked right at me and you were judging me. Well, I, and so I said, oh, let's sit down and talk about this. But as we were talking, what I realized is that I couldn't tell her the truth, which is that I never knew she was in the service. I never saw her and the way she was talking about it. If I had said to her, Oh no, I wasn't looking at you. I didn't even see you. I think she would have been more hurt actually, because what she wanted was unconditional.

Adam Eichelberger (20:12.148)
Hmm.

Bishop DeDe (20:24.462)
And so I did find a way to say, you are important to me and you are always welcome here. It was never my intention to look at you with anything other than compassion and love. I was preaching and anything that, you know, I just apologize if I just was not aware that that may be how you felt about it. Now, I never apologized for my sermon or something like that and I didn't say to her, I never saw you.

I did leave the door open and I'm happy to report that at a certain point she did come back to church and she did and we reconciled and we went on. But after that I was always aware where she was and I made a point of trying not to look at her when I was preaching because I realized there was a sensitivity there to feeling vulnerable in that space. And so I did need to learn from that, how to relate to her more effectively.

doesn't mean that I was wrong. This isn't about right and wrong as much as it is about community and relationships. How we don't intend to say something that's offensive to someone, but when we do, to take it seriously, to not dismiss it, to not change it, and to learn and say, okay, whether I like it or not, this person has a sensitivity to this, and I can be compassionate and generous, and that is part of being in community, is I don't.

demand to get my way and I don't seek to harm anyone and But it was a learning for me because immediately in that conversation with her I wanted to say I didn't even see you I thought Yeah, probably best not to say that make it worse

Adam Eichelberger (22:08.116)
So we do have two questions and they're not exactly on topic with what we're talking about today, but that's one of the beautiful things about the podcast listeners. You're able to ask your questions and Bishop Dee Dee is able to answer them for you. Exactly. We'll speak about them. That's right. So John, who is a listener from Maryland, asked, what can we do as Episcopal parishes to help stand out and bring in new people? Bishop, your thoughts.

Bishop DeDe (22:15.277)
Hey.

Bishop DeDe (22:20.116)
Or talk about them. We'll speak about them. I'm not sure can answer.

Bishop DeDe (22:28.525)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (22:37.858)
That's a great question, John, because one of the ways is to go out of our parishes, to be out where people are, to be accessible. I'm big on websites and Zoom services, live Zoom services. I think we miss something when we record them too much. We want people to know that this is live, this is what they can expect if they're there, to go out in the community and be where the people are.

I think one of the things people still do not expect, especially from the Episcopal Church, is acceptance and welcome and empowerment for LGBTQ plus persons to be a witness to that, to invite people to be engaged with us who do not agree with us. I'm always delighted when a listener says, well, I don't really believe in God, but I wanted to talk about this.

Adam Eichelberger (23:19.284)
Mm-hmm.

Bishop DeDe (23:31.234)
That makes my day because it means we're speaking about what we believe and we may not agree, but to have the acceptance and welcome for others really does stand out because a lot of times the narrative is you need to come here and fit in. So I think those ways that we can be out where people are, where we can invite people to their own journey of faith, we're not here to make your journey of faith like my journey of faith, we're here to help you.

to ask questions, to be engaged, that really stands out. And people definitely notice that they can have more confidence to come be with us. And if you happen to be a clergy person, one of my number ones is always, always accept the opportunity to celebrate a service out in the community. Whether it's a funeral service at a local funeral parlor,

or whether it's somebody wants to get married out in the field. We're here as they put to welcome people to sacred spaces of all kinds that when two or three are gathered, Jesus is in our midst. And to know that there's gonna be five to 10 minutes somewhere in there where you've got the floor and you get to say to people, God loves you, God cares about you and God invites you. And that I think is really one of the things that stands out.

is our willingness to meet people where they are. I think that's our call.

Adam Eichelberger (24:59.572)
Mm-hmm.

really good. All right, so our other question that we have for today, this is from Dana. Dana is from St. Louis, so shout out to some good barbecue where Dana is. She asks, she asks, what are some of your favorite spiritual practices? Are there some that you like that folks may not know about that you would recommend?

Bishop DeDe (25:10.67)
Cool.

Bishop DeDe (25:14.103)
Love that.

Bishop DeDe (25:25.048)
Thank you, Dana, great question. And share your spiritual practices in the comments section. Tell me about what means something to you. The one that comes to mind immediately is I love contemplative prayer and to sit in silence. I prefer it outside this time of year in central New York, not as good because then I'm distracted by cold, but it's getting close. The sun is out today, so it's coming soon.

Adam Eichelberger (25:31.408)
Absolutely.

Bishop DeDe (25:52.088)
To be out in the woods and sit and have contemplative prayer and silence is profoundly meaningful to me. Sacred spiritual walks, where I walk with intentionality on a path and prayerfully each step praying on the earth and being attentive to being part of the community of the earth, those are kind of things that center me. I really like when I'm in a hurry.

One of the spiritual practices that helps me slow down is praying on a breath. And I talk about this a lot because I do it a lot when I'm, especially if I'm in a situation that's very public and I'm feeling anxiety of some sort and I'm thinking, okay, I've got to pray. But it's not a time when I can say, excuse me, I'm going to go sit quietly. As I'm breathing out, I'll have a phrase or a verse that I think.

And as I breathe in, I have a phrase or verse, I think. So as you breathe in, for instance, God come to this place. And as I breathe out, fill us with your mercy or grace and just breathe in and breathe out about seven times. I find that to be very wonderful and helping with intentionality. so those are two prayers, very big singing to really praise God. I.

there was a point in my life when I realized most of our hymns are about us. know, God did this for me and God's doing this for me and I'm gonna do this for God and me, me and me. And I became a real fan of like adoration hymns that are about praise to the Lord. And those tend to catch me up. And so singing adoration praise hymns. And then finally, of course, reading scripture.

trying to be intentional and not just read scripture when I'm preparing a sermon. Those are just a few, but those are the ones I think that I daily and especially weekly utilize.

Bishop DeDe (27:57.758)
So, we've had a great conversation about, w in the church and his community. I invite you to comment and talk about and speak with one another about how do you heal and how do you recover? in a, in an upcoming episode, we'll talk a bit more about how do we forgive the church where we it's fallen short. There are times when the church just hasn't quite gotten it together, but then how as, as church us together.

Can we start and start a new trend, go in a new direction with God, allow the Holy Spirit to move in our midst. And so wherever you are on your journey, listener, my prayer for you is that you will be part of a community that nurtures your faith, that not only calls you to repentance and sort of holds you accountable, but also as a place of warm welcome and nurture that when we blow at a place that is like, yep, we all blow it, let's.

forgive each other and move on. We'll make amends. We're not going to hold grudges here. We're about Jesus. We're going to continue to love God with all that we are and love our neighbors as ourselves. May you be blessed and be a blessing and I look forward to speaking with you soon. Take good care.