Refuting the Doctrine of Discovery

In this episode, we delve into the complex and often overlooked topic of the Doctrine of Discovery. Join Bishop DeDe and guests Bishop Douglas Lucia of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Syracuse and Bishop Lee Miller II of the Upstate New York Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America as they uncover the historical origins and far-reaching implications of this legal principle founded in previous church teaching, which has profoundly shaped the course of history and continues to impact Indigenous communities worldwide.

Our hope is to shed light on this critical aspect of history and its relevance in contemporary issues of social justice, human rights, and reconciliation. Whether you're familiar with the topic or hearing about it for the first time, this episode promises to provoke thought and ignite conversations about the enduring impact of the Doctrine of Discovery. Join us on this journey of understanding and reflection as we confront the past and strive for a more equitable future.

AI Disclosure: To support our staff in their limited time, many of our episode summaries are first generated by AI and then edited by the Communications Director to accurately reflect and preview our podcast episodes.

Transcript

Bishop DeDe 

Welcome friends to the podcast, Speaking of Faith. I am delighted to be joined today by Bishop Douglaslas Lucia. He hails from upstate New York. Having grown up in the Plattsburgh area, he is approaching his 35th anniversary of ordination to the priesthood. He has been Bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Syracuse since 2019 and in that role, as with all of his roles before that, he has served with integrity and an eye on healing and restorative justice for those who have been hurt by systems and people. 

And I'm joined by Bishop Lee Miller II, who also grew up in upstate New York and is actually the second Bishop Lee Miller for the upstate New York Synod of the ELCA. His father was Bishop during the 90s. In his ministry, Bishop Miller has a clear and joyful focus on partnerships and pastoral care, and I've experienced him to be someone whose ministry brings healing, compassion, and unity in Christ to a variety of spaces, too. This summer will mark three years of Bishop Miller's Episcopate, and it has been a joy to have him as a colleague as well as Bishop Lucia. My name is DeDe Duncan-Probe. I am the Episcopal Bishop of Central New York. For me, that is from Canada to Pennsylvania, Utica to Elmira and all the beautiful people and places in between. And our topic today is refuting the Doctrine of Discovery. And if you have not read or heard about the Doctrine of Discovery, that is something we're going to talk about today. And so Bishop Lucia, I would love for you to begin the conversation about what has led us to want to engage in this work together.

Bishop Douglas Lucia

Well, what has led us really to engage in this work together is about when I became Bishop of Syracuse, all of a sudden - of the Catholic Diocese - all of a sudden I began to hear about a working group sort of out of Le Moyne, but discussing this whole Doctrine of Discovery. In a nutshell for folks, doctrine of discovery goes back to the 16th century when, in the age of exploration and it comes actually from the Catholic Church in the sense of what they call papal bulls, papal documents, that were used to give the rulers of the day sort of carte blanche that when they entered quote unquote a pagan territory they basically could take land or whatever they wanted. And so the doctrine of discovery then what we're doing or what we're discussing these days is how do we - I mean, it has technically been repealed, but it still exists. And for us here in Central New York, just to give you an example, when the Oneida Indians settled were discussing land claims back, I believe it's like the 90s or early 2000s. They, again, some of the court decisions cited from the US Supreme Court had its basis in the doctrine of discovery. So for us today, it's really trying to, as Bishop DeDe already said, it's all about how do we make reparation, but more than the word reparation, how do we correct what has happened here? And so that's how I got into it, so to speak. All of a sudden, I was learning about it. And so that's my background.

And then I wanted two compatriots to be with me. So I sort of roped Bishop DeDe and Bishop Miller into it. Yeah.

Bishop DeDe 

[Laughter] Which we were glad about. We enjoyed that. But Bishop Miller, I'm taking over Rachel's role here in a minute. She's going to be the facilitator, but I'm just going to go ahead and jump in here, Rachel. Bishop Miller, I think tell our listeners a little bit about your-  what brings you to this conversation as well.

RomComm

You do you, Bishop.

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

Yeah, thanks so much. What a gift it is to be together and to be the church together and to be able to share in this work and ministry. I am an upstate New York child, person born in Jamestown. I was a young child in Buffalo and then adolescence in high school in Syracuse and my undergrad work at SUNY Albany. And so growing up as a, as a throughway baby [I] was familiar certainly with the land around upstate New York and the ways that we are, how we differentiate ourselves from those from New York City and when people outside of New York hear New York, they only think of the city. They don't think of the beautiful land that is across so much of our state. And around that time living in Syracuse, one of the places where they would take us in third grade was a place along Onondaga Lake called the French Fort.

And the French Fort was - as you pulled up to it - it was what a young child might think of when they think of those colonial times in terms of a barrier wall that the colonial villages would live within or behind. And what we were told is that over the pointed walls and the pointed sticks of the French Fort, that is how the French colonialists defended themselves from the Mohawk peoples and others of those who were called the Iroquois peoples at the time. Twenty years later, as a young adult and my father was retired, he said,  “I began volunteering.” He said, “I'm volunteering at this place that's called St. Marie among the Iroquois.” And as it turns out, it was the same place that had been called the French Fort when I was a child. But they said, actually, we got the story wrong.

Bishop DeDe 

Mm.

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

There was never a place where the French colonialists had been fighting with the indigenous folks, but rather it was a place where the French colonialists and members of the Mohawk peoples were living together in harmony until each of their communities told them that they were a threat to the other. And if they did not abandon being in community together, then their respective national parties would come and, and destroy everyone. 

Well, it turns out that wasn't fully the truth either. And what I have learned by being in community and relationship with Bishop Lucia and Bishop Duncan-Probe is that we have begun to hear more from the Onondaga Nation and her people of the truth of the Onondaga people who see Onondaga Lake as the source and place of creation, as the source of Turtle Island where all life came from and share stories about how life came birthing up among this place. And in that truth, of course, we hear as Caucasian European descent folks of the impact of colonialization, the impact of genocide in this land.

And I've had to relearn a history that I was told that at best was not the whole truth, and at its worst was really absolute lies. I grew up believing that the reason why there weren't more Indigenous persons, more Haudenosaunee, is that their population must have just been so much fewer than people of European descent and white folks.

Bishop DeDe

Mm-hmm.

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

And I did not know the truth in third grade about General Washington sending armies up what we would now call I-81 and into the valley and be giving permission to generals to commit genocide along the way in the place that we would now call upstate New York. So for the - for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, we have -  we have initiated a campaign called the Truth and Healing Campaign where we might tell these truths. And I know Bishop DeDe that you as well have been telling truths of the boarding schools and maybe we'll continue to go into those issues. But so what I think I want to say is that I've learned from my childhood where I was not, where we did not always teach one another the truth and the truth about racism, the truth about genocide and white supremacy worldview and how that impacted the communities and the people from whom we serve now.

Bishop DeDe

Thank you. Thank you. Well, you know, what brought me to this really - 

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

Oh, I'm sorry. May I?  

Bishop DeDe

Oh, please.

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

Bishop, I'm sorry that I didn't bring that to the contemporary location now on Onondaga Lake. It's no longer St. Marie among the Iroquois, but is the Skä•noñh Center for the Great Law of Peace, and that it is operated and managed by the Onondaga Nation.

Bishop DeDe

Right. That's right. Great, thank you. I'm the outlier. I did not grow up here. 

Bishop Douglas Lucia

[Laughter]

Bishop DeDe
I grew up in Fort Worth, Texas, where we talked about different things, but all under the same guise of that - the sort of manifest destiny issues and this is just what it was. And like Bishop Miller,  “Oh, well, this is because those people just died out or because this was, it was not because someone intentionally was harming people.” 

And so I became bishop in 2016. And at that time [I] began to learn about the history of our diocese here and about this local area. And I had the opportunity to gather with some of the Haudenosaunee at the farm  here in Onondaga. And in listening to their stories, I realized a lot more. I had, of course, learned a lot over my lifetime about indigenous issues and other places, but I began to learn about those issues here. And when I went to my staff and said, “Have you heard about whether it's Sullivan's campaign or some of the other things?” and people who had grown up here had no idea what I was talking about.

And I was really stunned because I felt like I was late to the party. Like I was, [I]  just didn't know. And, and then the Doctrine of Discovery was something that when I learned about it in seminary, what I learned about was the papal bull aspect of it and what it meant for the church and how it impacted, you know, exploration around the globe, but what was not taught was a devastating impact on indigenous persons around the globe.

And so I began, I think, in seminary more earnestly to learn about the doctrine of discovery and about indigenous issues. But then when I came here as bishop and realized this vacuum of knowledge, and then of course, as both of the bishops have said, I've gotten to know them and we began talking about this together as people of faith. And it became more important, I think, to me and to one another to begin to really talk about the evils of what happens when the dignity of others is not honored, with racism, and with all of these different ways how it impacts our world. And so this has been a real journey of discovery for me about learning more about the boarding schools as you mentioned, Bishop Miller, and about how all of us can be part of lamenting what has been.

And there is no way to make reparations for it fully. The damage is too extensive and horrific. But even today, the doctrine of discovery is used in our court system, as you noted Bishop Lucia, to be the reason for further objectifying or serving injustice. So, it's something that I'm very committed to at this point in my life. And my diocese has not had a, they've not been on the right side of the table, as it were, the right side of the issue. The diocese has benefited from taking lands that were not legally ceded. The diocese has benefited from oppression of others. And so I feel particularly that it's our work to do to repent of that and to change that now and into the future. So Rachel, now I will turn this over to you. I mean this is a problem. You give three bishops a microphone and you know it's a problem. You'll never get a word in.

RomComm

[Laughter]

Bishop Douglas Lucia

Yeah.

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

Danger!

Bishop Douglas Lucia & Bishop DeDe
[Laughter]

RomComm

Listen, we have thoroughly established on this podcast that I am a nerd, so I'm just sitting here listening and learning. I really appreciate the way you all have kind of woven in your personal journeys with learning and unlearning about the doctrine of discovery and what you've said about how it continues in just, even in recent memory to have legal ramifications in our area. But I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the theological and spiritual impact of this doctrine, which has been, as you noted, Bishop Lucia repealed, but we know has a lasting impact. From your perspective, how is that impacting the uh, the spiritual flavor, the spiritual history of your faith tradition?

Bishop Douglas Lucia

Well, you know, the problem is with the repealing, and I've said this in other venues, the problem with the repealing is: on paper it's repealed, but it doesn't mean it's repealed in our hearts, if I can use it that way, or in our behaviors. And so for me, theologically, it really is a return to the prophets, where we're called to rend our hearts and not just our garments, and to really do something, to do something to help heal a very grievous wound. 

You know, we sometimes talk about scars on Mother Earth or the deep wounds that creation feels. And to me, I feel this is a deep wound. And in that woundedness, though, I think of one of my favorite Christian writers, Henri Nouwen, who wrote a book called The Wounded Healer. And I think for me, that's really what we're looking at is, “How can we help the healing process?” And in my own conversations with the Haudenosaunee in particular, we have talked about that it's not really a question of reparation, but more like, “How can we move on from here?”

And one of the key facets of that is a wampum, which for them is a treaty. We would probably look at it and think it's a belt, and it is a belt, but it's really a treaty. And there's one of the treaties called the Two Row. And now the Two Rows was actually made with the Dutch, Dutch settlers. But it was basically a recognition that we're going to share this land, and we're going to walk together and we're going to respect one another. But there again, it didn't last, at least, and I will say not necessarily more on the part of the settlers who began to say, “Oh, I want this, I want that.” And it's like sort of like infringement, if we use that word. 

So, so it's all a really an idea - for me more and more - it's just the idea of, “How do we start to, how do we acknowledge the past but then how do we walk together again?” And to me that's the big question and in meeting with Haudenosaunee not just the chiefs but even with the clan mothers that is one thing I've learned is that it's really “How do we move on from here?” And I don't want to monopolize here, but that's really what I'm seeing right now.

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

Yeah, I think for me, I've been thinking lately about, as you asked us around theology, about, you know, two tracks, and one is around Imago Dei, right? The image of God, and who is God as we see God in all of God's people. 

And so we know that in the Doctrine of Discovery, there's not a view that all people are created in the image of God and created in the image of Loving Kindness, for that whole doctrine is based in other-izing the person that is encountered, right? And certainly we know today, and I so appreciate, I think I'm getting goosebumps actually as I talk about it, that our three denominations today can be here together in this podcast to say that we all believe that people are created in the image of God and that God's love is for all of God's people. 

And so we can talk about both in the renunciation and lament, but also as Bishop Lucia points us towards the future in terms of how and why do we go forward. Part of that is because we can see others not for the need to convert or to make like us because each human being is beloved by the Creator of all life. 

And then I've been thinking a bit about, as I had the opportunity last year to travel to the Holy Land for the first time and to consider the theology of land as it relates to the indigenous people in Palestine. And so now in the conflict that continues to rage there. And it - I can't help but to be pointed back to the indigenous people of the United States and the theology of land, that the land and the doctrine of discovery is somehow given by God to Europeans who have traveled the seas in order to be here, to say, “This is now your land because God gave it to you,” and that our indigenous siblings do not see the land as something to own, but is a partner in life and is a gift by Creator. And so changing the way and learning from our indigenous siblings of our view of the land. And yes, it is land that the Creator has blessed, that God has blessed, and that is true with all land. There is not only one portion of land called holy. The whole world that God so loves is holy and all of God's people are holy before we meet them.

Bishop DeDe

Mm-hmm. Amen. Well, and I think we also, one of the things we tend to do with social justice or with honoring other people is we kind of make it ancillary to the gospel as if there's the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is about my salvation. And then there's that other stuff that's good to do because I've been saved and it's good, but it's not at the core of it.

And what I have come to really believe and understand about the gospel of Jesus is it's actually at the core of the gospel. There's no separation there. That what salvation really means in terms of our world and one another and our relationship, that loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving our neighbors ourselves is that all the law and the prophets depends on that. If we're unloving with our neighbor, as 1 John tells us, then how can we say we know God? 

And so if we can look at the doctrine of discovery and how it continues to harm our world, how it continues to objectify, subjugate, and divide our siblings, our brothers and sisters, then how can we say we have known Jesus? And so it really gets at the heart not of, “Oh it's all about me,” but actually, all of me is about us. And there's been a lot of talk lately about Ubuntu. It's a wonderful understanding of “I am because you are,” which comes out of, from the African continent and other indigenous places with different ways of expressing it. That who we are is communal. And so it is essential that we address those places where our communal living is actually harming other people 

that, then anything else we may say about our love for God or our love for Jesus is negated, because it is false. And it's hard work loving our neighbors, ourselves, to understand that deep reciprocity that in loving we are loved and in loving that we become loved. 

And so I think that relationship, which the bishops don't know this, but those who listen to this podcast know, I think I say that every podcast, but it really does for me come down to these deep relationships with one another, which is why it's so wonderful to have my brother bishops here with me today talking about this and why in talking about these things when we've gone to other places has been so deeply meaningful to me because we do, as you pointed out, Bishop Miller, represent these major parts of Christendom coming together and having a conversation and saying the way that it has been is no longer the way we will be because we know Jesus, because we hear God calling us to this work.

RomComm

I so appreciate the way you all have been able to connect the theological with the lived out. And I wonder if we could dig into that a little bit more. The name of this podcast is Speaking of Faith. And as Bishop DeDe has said several times, we live in a time and in place and perhaps and cultures that speaking of politics and speaking of religion and speaking of money is taboo and the result of that is that we can't do it anymore. We've lost the skills. 

And so what we try to do here is try to take faith and bring it into action steps. And I know that for me sitting here listening to you all, a conversation I so appreciate, there's part of my heart that just feels very heavy because this is so broken and so hard. And there, you know, I can't fix it. Bishop was, Bishop has great faith in her staff. But we can't fix everything. And so I wonder if some of our listeners are feeling like that. If you all could speak into what, what are some steps that people of faith can take into being part of this healing work that you talked about, Bishop Lucia, and Bishop Miller, the idea of honoring the image of God in all God's creation? If you all could speak into that, I think that would be so helpful for us.

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

Yeah, I don't mind going first if you'd like me to. This is our third formal conversation that we've had in this way, a public conversation. And in our second one, we were engaging with and were part of a conference at Syracuse University. And one of the leaders of the Onondaga Nation, I'll paraphrase the way that I heard what he was saying. So this is not quoting him, but what I heard him essentially saying is, “I don't trust you all. I've heard these words before.” And not just from us, but from those in our similar positions, calls, places of power. And for centuries, right, in the place that we call the United States as a part of Turtle Island and certainly coming from Indigenous nations. And I drove home that day really meditating on those words. And so my first response in thinking towards your question is part of the role of faith. And I want to say he was correct. I mean, he's got no reason to trust me, right? So I don't want to, this is - 

RomComm

That's right.

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

- this is me processing my stuff, I really appreciate that he said that out loud and to be able to hear that. And so one thought and one response is, is as people of faith and as a person of faith, perhaps if I wasn't a person of faith, you might say in the midst of, oh, but the, but the, I think Bishop Lucia said, it might be too late for reparations or I don't want to put words in your mouth, but reparations becomes really tough because can you really make up for what has happened, can anything I say to what you said fix, right? Nothing I can say can fix what has been. But then as people of faith, can I say, okay, that I can be about a posture of lament, sit in it a bit, and because we are connected by the Creator, what can I do going forward?

And so in addition to speaking some of these truths and having the truth telling be part of what we do going forward, I've been wondering about again, simple acts and enjoining,  joining with the cries for indigenous people as they lift up violence against women and in particular violence against indigenous women who have gone missing or who have been killed. So, being present-day advocates for that, in addition to investigating some of the work of the past. So how do we stand with our indigenous siblings today in the issues that they are concerned about today in the way that the Doctrine of Discovery continues to impact land agreements today and be really at work proactively towards those justice issues that indigenous communities are facing in the here and now, and not just stay in the past. 

Or if we were not people of faith, perhaps we would shy away and say, “Oh, if it doesn't bother me, I'll shrink away into my privilege.” But to say, “No. In Christ, the gift of love calls us to keep walking together and moving forward.”

Bishop DeDe

I really appreciate that because I actually was going to have lunch with one of my indigenous friends from the Haudenosaunee farm and we had arranged to have lunch and when we arrived at the venue I was a little bit early and I was looking around and I had never put two and two together with this particular restaurant. I'd never seen it but I looked up and there was a headdress, an Indian headdress, was one of the main features of this restaurant which is owned by European folks, and which is appropriating the symbology of a headdress, which is very sacred. And it just hit me that I am so blind to how much is inappropriately either tokenized, appropriated, or the ways in which subjugation is kind of perpetuated as if it's “those people's” issue or this or these are images that we can just use without recognition of the sacredness of them. And you know out on the thruway where they have the teepees at certain times of the year and they've lit them up - well teepees were a plains indian thing that is not a Haudenosaunee thing and but if they put long houses out there you know people wouldn't readily recognize. And yet in the schools in this area, school children get their popsicle sticks out and they make long houses. And then that's kind of, that's the education. “You made a long house so you know all about it.” 

And so I think speaking faith and then speaking of faith in this regard is to begin to acknowledge these places where this isn't something from the past. Although I think as white people or European folks, we need to learn. I think we have to reëducate ourselves and open our eyes. But then also to see the ways in which we may be contributing to appropriation that we aren't even, we don't even know to look there because we've been so blinded by this sin. And that has been something that I think for our listeners to begin to open our eyes and to look at when images are used about how we talk about some of the political issues, how we talk about water rights, and the ways in which we're talking about possession and power rather than relationship and honoring Mother Earth, to begin to educate ourselves, but then in the course of educating ourselves to begin, as you say, Bishop Miller,, to advocate for change. 

And then I think some of the simple ways are just to speak with one another. I mean, a lot of us don't talk to our family or our friends and say, “Have you, do you know some of these stories, or could we read a book together and learn together and talk to build relationships with, of respect, with Haudenosaunee or indigenous persons from other places?” 

There's so much, I think, and to Rachel's point, it can feel so overwhelming, like, “Oh, I can't fix this, so I won't do anything. I don't know what to do, because it's so big, so I'll just stop.” And to have the courage to just do one thing. Catherine Meeks is a beloved person in the Episcopal Church and she says just be a smidge braver, just a smidge. And so learn one thing and talk about that thing. Go to the Skä•noñh Center or learn about imagery and then to just take one step and then take the next. 

And like you said, the one gentleman that you're talking about who is at Syracuse University talked about land acknowledgments and he said, “If you're gonna acknowledge the land then give it back,” and it really struck me because That's something I have wrestled with as people get up in doing land acknowledgments, but with no connection to any sort of activism or relationship or response. And so with my clergy I actually told them, “Do not do a land acknowledgement until you've written the acknowledgement with a really out of relationship, until you've done something about it. Because otherwise it's just, it's empty and it's like a clanging gong as First Corinthians would tell us. So.

Bishop Douglas Lucia

And it's funny you were talking about land acknowledgement because that's what I was thinking. That was one of the things I was thinking was - I really - that did strike me as well was this whole idea that we just and I think that was going back to what Bishop Miller was saying about that meeting. I think one of the things really was they were asking us, “Well, just don't talk the talk. If you're going to talk about it, do something.” And that to me is a very practical thing.

Bishop DeDe

That's right.

Bishop Douglas Lucia

But I was also struck, and I don't know if the other two bishops caught this. I think I might have shared it with you afterwards. But it was very interesting that one of the clan mothers who I've gotten to know, and I consider a close friend in the sense of Freida Jacques. And Freida turned to me, and because this whole thing about returning land, and she said to me, you know, she said,

I don't know about, she says, “I understand this is a lot.” She says, “You know, one thing right now we're looking for is we really could use like a medical clinic where we have access to even in downtown.” And it began, it started making me think of, well, you know, we can't always, you know, we wonder, “Well, how can I return land?” Well, maybe it's, maybe it's as, because even Frieda would say to me, “It's not going back, it's how do we go forward?” And going forward is how can we help in a sense, and that would be the part of the healing, how can we help provide what is really needed by a community? So anyways, so that has got me thinking quite a bit. And I have actually made an initial inquiry about it just to see what we could do. But...

Bishop DeDe

Thank you.

Bishop Douglas Lucia

But I think that's where I see, I agree, we could almost see this as being overwhelming, but I was really struck when Freida said that to me because I thought, “No, that's a way we can move forward.”

Bishop DeDe

Take that first step. Yeah Well, I really want to thank you. I don't know Rachel if you're gonna ask another question, but I want to thank the - 

Bishop Lee Miller (he/him) 

Amen.

Bishop Douglas Lucia

Yeah.

RomComm

No, I was just going to express my gratitude. And I love the focus that all of you brought on - I don't know if you can see here, The West Wing is a favorite of mine - but “What's next?” And I really, really appreciated the focus on what's next. One step, one conversation, and keep moving forward. And I don't know what you think, Bishop Dee Dee, but for our first podcast guests - 

Bishop Douglas Lucia

Ah, great.

Bishop DeDe

Hahaha

RomComm

I think these bishops have set the bar pretty high. This has been a great conversation.

Bishop DeDe

- exciting. But I'm very grateful again for you all being here and for this conversation. For those who are listening, I encourage you to learn more, to speak more and to take your voice and share your knowledge and wisdom with this world and to take that next brave step to do something that has meaning and deep value for someone else and builds reconciliation and love in this world. May you be blessed and know that you are loved and be a blessing and we'll hear you soon. Take good care.